Welcome President Trump.

[beenthere]

What are those rules ??

[WV Sawmiller]

Certainly the Constitution allows for a 3rd party, my understanding was that the Founders didn't want to see political parties form at all (but joined them themselves when they did). The current blob has written rules to ensure that their 2 parties stay in power.

The issue I see with the parties now is that they have become so fragmented they have too much in-fighting to be functional. Also when they start trying to establish and post their "values" and goals they shoot themselves in the foot. When they say "If you are a member of our party you must be pro-choice, oppose capital punishment, want government provided medical and other services, open borders, etc." If you are in the other party you must believe in "Capital punishment, be pro-life, be totally opposed to any government regulation of food or medical, closed borders, etc."

  Unfortunately for both parties few citizens actually support all of their party's platform items. Are you an ultra conservative Democrat or an ultra liberal Republican? Then the party seem to make it worse by only selecting the most extreme members of their party as their candidate of choice so their designated rep is so far out of line with their personal views they either don't vote, they vote for the other party rep or a protest vote for a little known third party with not enough following to ever get selected.  At what point do you cross over to believing/supporting more of the other party than your own?

  In many countries they have a Prime Minister instead of a president and the PM is normally selected by the controlling party in their legislature. Failing that they select a compromise candidate for PM where a couple of parties override another. We take it for granted we may have a GOP president and one or both the house and/or senate will be Dem. In some cases this works better because of forces compromise and keeps the Pres in line. In others it does not work well because Congress fights every idea not from their side of the fence.

  The SCOTUS is supposed to be neutral and just rule on whether a law is legal under the terms of the constitution. They only rule when there is a challenge from someone to a law and that person filing the challenge has to be personally affected by the challenged law. The SCOTUS then reviews and rules when they think there may have been a mistake from a lower court (or other special circumstances) and hear arguments and rule yes or no if the law meets the rules of the constitution. THEY ARE NOT TO MAKE LAWS! That is for congress with presidential approval or veto and where we have had problems we are still cleaning up.

  The party system was supposed to help us to get a short list of candidates to make the actual elections go faster and more efficiently.

[Mooseherder]

Some accountability would go a long way. I think Trump is the only person able to pull off a 3rd party. I made a post about it 4 years ago?

[Mooseherder]

What I wrote 3 years ago in the Swamp Drainage thread.
Not so crazy now eh?

Can you believe all that is happening!?  You couldn't write this stuff up.  So much is beyond bizarre.  I've got an idea for Trump to do some Swamp Drainage.
He should announce that he will be holding a Press Conference on Sunday Evening.  That he has a very, very , VERY Important Announcement he would like to make to the American people and he hopes that they can tune in for it.
Let the suspense build for a couple days.  The media would be all consumed preparing for it.  There would be a hundred different theories of what the heck he's got to say.  On Sunday Evening he could tell the whole world watching that he is no longer a Republican.  That he is now an American Independent.  Not the Bernie Sanders version of Independent.  That he hopes all Americans decide to join him.  Drop the Mic and walk away.  Congress would scatter like cockroaches. I know this all sounds ridiculous but so isn't everything else going on. :D

Wow, 8 years ago. 

[Machinebuilder]

I would be happy to see a Flat tax.

As a single tax payer I see myself being taxed at a higher rate than married people making the same money., And they get all the deductions that I don't.
I think that many people don't' see the government money as coming from their pocket.
I am happy to see this administration working at discovering fraud and waste, and then doing something about it. If you aren't upset over the $16B medicare fraud something is wrong with you.

I would love to see term limits, the problem is the same people that would have to enact them are the same people that would be kicked out.
None of them want to leave that lucrative a job. Think AOC being worth $23M after a few years in office.

The only reason it is a 2 party system is the 2 party's work to eliminate any competition. If you look at local elections in many areas there are only candidates in one party.
If I want a choice in my local county commissioner I had better vote in the republican primary because there are not any democrats running.
When I go vote there are usually a lot of minor party candidates running for major offices. Most of them are not people a sane person would vote for but Ross Perot made a pretty good run in 1992.
He is the last 3rd party candidate to place high in any state and did not get any electoral votes.

[doc henderson]

It is funny how the business mindset may not be so bad after all.  I voted for him (Ross) twice.  The US is really a big business.

[Ron Wenrich]

I saw a poll where 82% of the public support term limits.  The 119th Congress has a pledge that Congressmen can sign that they would cosponsor a bill for term limits of 3 terms for the House and 2 for the Senate.  So far, 128  House members and 23 Senate members have signed.  To pass a bill into an amendment, you would need 3/4 of the each house to pass the bill into law.  So far, there's 28.3% of the House and 23% of the Senate.  Not very likely they will make 75%.

They would need 34 states to pass a resolution for a national convention and 38 states to pass it for an amendment.  Right now, there are 12 states that have passed it.  17 states enacted term limits back in 1994.  They were struck down by the Supremes saying that term limits on federal office was not a state level authority. 

It seems that Musk is going to give the 3rd party attempt.  Ross Perot did a good job of it back in 1992 and 1996 with the Reform Party.  But, they ran out of money when Pat Buchanan ran and they couldn't raise more.  Musk has deeper pockets and he might be able to attract enough candidates to actually gain control over the House or Senate.  There wouldn't need to be that much of a swing to control passage of bills.  He talked about 10 seats.

[barbender]

That's the thing, Ron- with control of the House and Senate usually decided by a very small majority, it could give a third party a lot of power with just a few seats. We already see politicians eyes light up when they realize that they have a lot of power with their one vote sometimes being necessary to get a bill across the finish line.

[fluidpowerpro]

2 things will be required before any major improvement can happen.
1. Reverse the Citizens United decision that allows superpacks to spend unlimited money on an election.
2. Adopt ranked choice voting. That way you can vote for a 3rd party candidate without feeling like its a wasted vote.

[Greenie]

Maine adopted ranked choice voting and  returning Republican congressman (Bruce Poliquin) won the popular vote; however when RCV was applied Poliquin lost to Democrat Jared Golden. Only one other state (Alaska) has RCV on all elections and it narrowly survived a referendum in 2024.
It's complex, and after 8 years of having it in Maine many of us are still unsure of RCV intricacies. Does selecting the same candidate across the board improve chances of that candidate prevailing? I can't think of any elections in my 54 years of voting that I had 2nd, 3rd, or 4th choices. 

[Bradm]

2 party, 3 party, infinite parties.  Doesn't matter.  One side won't set aside their differences which results in the other side, which, even though different parties, have a consensus in mind set allowing them to vote "anyone but _______".

Beside, no one's even addressed one of the big problems with the current system in which the politician's job is to get reelected.

[Ron Wenrich]

Ranked choice voting is just another angle to try and game the system.  If you don't get the results you want, change the rules..

We need clean voting roles.  Get rid of vote by mail, except for those that have disabilities or won't be in the area during election day.  Vote only on election day.  Hand count.  Have results within 24 hours.  It seemed so much easier when we had those old mechanical voting machines.

[WV Sawmiller]

Ron,

  I concur with most of your comment but do like the idea of early voting at official polling places - here it is our courthouse.

  I like that convenience, you avoid long delays at the polls and you comply with the same security and rules as on election day. Voting early just makes it easier on the voter and speeds the count IMHO.

   I am fine with the machine count as long as the machines are certified. I was a poll worker for many years and within minutes of closing the polls we had the tally and there was no reason that tally could not be added to the others and results published within minutes of the results reaching the central poll (Courthouse). 

    I think all absentee ballots received after election day should be discarded. If you know you have to vote absentee you also know you need to vote early and get your ballot in the mail. 

    During the Bush/Gore recount it came to light ballots sent for ships and maybe overseas military bases did not get post marked. I hope they have resolved that issue as I think the ultimate insult to a serving military member would be to have his vote discarded because his ship/base PO did not post mark his ballot.

[doc henderson]

and the poll watchers should stay until they shut the lights off and everyone leaves.

[fluidpowerpro]

I dont see how Ranked Choice is bad. Right now, unless you are in one of the 2 major parties, a candidate will have no chance because of campaign finance (super packs)
 
Within each party, unless the candidates position caters to the extreme side of each platform, they have no chance and get pushed out during the primaries.

Middle of the road politicians are eliminated so when you do end up voting, your only choices are someone with extreme positions.

You end up voting for your "least worse" option.

The current 2 party system isnt working. 

[Wlmedley]

I remember when Ross Perot ran for president. He made a lot of sense and had charts to back up what he wanted to do. I think he had good ideas and don't remember the other candidates coming back with good reasons why his ideas wouldn't work. I wish someone similar would run again.

[WV Sawmiller]

and the poll watchers should stay until they shut the lights off and everyone leaves.

Doc,

   I am not sure which point you mean about staying till the turning off the lights. When my wife and I worked the polls we shut the polls at the appointed time, downloaded the tally, every worker (5 of us representing multiple parties) signed it to verify the results then put it in a sealed envelope that we all signed across the seal. We did shut off the lights, locked the door and the ballots and tally sheet were driven to the courthouse with one Republican and one Democrat in the same car with the ballots so the ballots were never alone with one party rep. At the courthouse we surrendered them to the county clerk and her team who were responsible then our day was over and it was a long day. We typically met about 5:30 am and the polls closed 7 pm IIRC then we did our tally and close up. 

[barbender]

I think he was referring to the fact that some polling places did not follow that procedure, Howard.

[Ron Wenrich]

During the last election, California was still counting "ballots" until Jan 20.  We have the same problem in Philadelphia.  It takes them a week to do what everyone else does in a day.  Somehow, they keep finding ballots. 

Ranked choice voting is used in Alaska.  They don't have a primary.  The Dems ran 1 candidate, the Reps ran 2 in the general election.  Although the Reps had the majority of votes cast, they split the ballot, and the Dems flipped the state.  Its used in San Francisco, Berkeley, Oakland and a few other places in CA.  I don't think I want a system that's being used there.  I don't see how it works in a general election, since the vast majority vote in the major party. 

[Magicman]

Sounds like a very Bad way to elect the person that actually comes in second in the election.  How can that be fair or good?  My choice is for one person, one vote.....PERIOD.

The motto seems to be; vote early and vote often.

[WV Sawmiller]

Lynn,

    I think that vote early and often was an LBJ quote and I have used it frequently too.

    I remember working overseas during elections and sometimes it was very hard to get absentee ballots in time to complete and return them. Our embassies and such were not very cooperative about helping and were very clear they were there to support US interests in that country - not to support us Ex-Pat American citizens who happened to choose to work there. I did not think highly of them in case you may wonder.

    I remember in some countries they would set up road blocks so people could not cross district lines to vote in several places. They would also dip their finger in a permanent ink to show they had voted and not to allow them to vote again. And we have enough trouble just getting our folks to wear the little "I Voted" sticker.

[230Dforme]

Good evening, as usual, Magicman is correct. The the inability to accept an outcome on a vote that doesn't go your way is an inability to understand why we vote. Evidently, half the country will always be terribly upset. As this remains the greatest country in the world, that is a shame.

[Machinebuilder]

I don't understand the opposition to voter ID.

When I vote they scan my drivers license and have me sign a book. it takes very little time and then I take a paper to another station to get a code to start voting.
After the last presidential election debacle, the voting machine prints a paper sheet with my votes and then I feed it into a scanner which tabulates the votes.

I rarely early vote because those lines are longer than the lines at my polling place, advantage to living in the country.

[Magicman]

I don't understand the opposition to voter ID.

Nor do I and I know the group that oppose it.  Surely they need ID for their "handouts", or maybe they don't.      

[gspren]

In my rural area the poll workers only ask for ID if they don't know you and if you've lived there for more than a few years they probably know you.