What is the protocol for cold calling

[Robert R]

There is some land near me that is for sale.  From the road, it has a number of sizeable, straight walnuts, well near if not over 30 inches.  I have found out who owns it and I'd like to make an offer to buy some those trees.  I have never had a cutting job except for ones where the landowner sought me out and the deals have been struck over hand shakes and a walk through the woods with a paint can saying cut this one, not that one, etc.  I've also always had a good enough relationship to be able to just pay out 50% of the price after the logs have been sold rather than offer cash up front.  What needs be included in an offer.  Are there any popular "pitches" that are more successful or ones that should be avoided.  This is unclear territory for me and I don't want to sink myself.

Also, since the land is signed as "for sale", would it be unethical for me to walk the ground in order to measure and estimate tree values since I have no intent on buying the land? 

[Jeff]

Also, since the land is signed as "for sale", would it be unethical for me to walk the ground in order to measure and estimate tree values since I have no intent on buying the land? 

Personal opinion, Yea, you bet, unless you have permission I would consider it a trespass. I don't consider putting a for sale sign on property permission to inspect it for any reason without prior consent.

However in the real world, timber buyers do it all the time. The ones I call Timber Pimps.

[DanG]

Robert, things is different in different parts of the country.  Around here, if land is not fenced and posted, anyone can come in, as long as they don't disturb anything.  However, up front is always the best way to approach any business proposal.  I'd contact the owner and ask if he is interested in talking about selling a few trees.   If he isn't, thank him for his time and forget it.  If he is, then your foot is in the door and you can take it from there.

[rebocardo]

Robert,

I would consider it trespass.

If it is for sale, then most likely a survey has already been done and the owner knows how many cords per acre of the various woods there are. I know when I bought my 30 acres, a forester had listed projected pulpwood and species and expected gain within 10 years, etc..

Myself, I would call and speak to the owner.

> What is the protocol for cold calling

Be blunt and fast (do not waste their time) that you are not interested in the land, but, would like to harvest some selected trees. I would at least offer some cash up front if I got permission.

[Ron Wenrich]

I guess I'm one of those "timber pimps".  I used to take tax maps and then go for a hike.  Mostly I walked trails, and cover a ridge, if something looked intresting from the road. 

But, in most instances, you can see the timber from the road.  I guess that isn't trespassing.  You can learn timber cruising at 55 mph if you know what to look for.   :D

For most landowners, "I was driving by and I noticed that you might have some timber that I would be interested in."  That usually would either open doors or close them. 

Your pitch must include your business, your experience, how you pay, how you propose to work, and how things will look after you're done.  References are handy.  Pay before you cut will open more doors than pay after they're cut.  There's a trust factor.  Always use a contract.

Land that is for sale can go either way.  I've seen guys gut stands before they sell them, then have to lower the price.  Others want to sell a wooded lot.  Then, there is always the possiblity that the landowner hadn't thought of timbering before and get in someone else.   ;)

[Woodhog]

I do it like you do and work for 50% of the logs....

The present operation the owner has about 500 acres and has only taken a look one time...

This is the old way and both partys have to trust each other..

However all the Best Mangement Practices information suggests something like the following...

Harvests should be carried out under a written contract between the landowner (seller) and the logger (buyer). The contract should address things such as the exact description of the area to be logged, price, method of payment, time within which the harvest must be completed, performance bond requirements, slash treatment, road construction requirements, road regrading and revegetation after the sale, and other factors related to the harvest. Any timber harvest is a business transaction and a good contract will help ensure that the harvest will be successful for both the logger and the landowner.

Where your piece is up for sale I would be worried about it being sold while you have logs on the ground
and there could be problems of who owns the logs???

Also the BMPs recommend a management plan..

I would contact the owner, visit the land and then make up a small plan and show it to him/her...

The old word of mouth methods are fast being replaced due to dishonesty on both parties around here, the loggers are under tremendous financial problems and the owners dont trust them ..

On a neighboring piece there is a lawsuit in progress, the old sell three loads pay for 2 trick....

[Gary_C]

If it was me, I would be interested in buying the land. Call them and get the particulars on the property and find out if there has been a apprasial done and what was appraised. Then ask permission to enter and look at the property. I have seen some timber lands that had enough pulp and good hardwoods to more than pay for the purchase price. You can always sell the land after you take an improvement cut where you clean out he pulp and some of the good trees.

After you look, you can always bring up the question of harvesting some trees if you do not wish to purchase the property. By then you will have a better understanding of his goals.

[Jeff]

Well, I look at it like this since this is referring to a cold call, and I will put myself in the place of the callee.  If I found out that someone had been tramping all over my land by telling me they knew exactly how much timber I had and how much it was worth I would escort them off the porch and to the road.  Things may work differently in other parts of the country, but here in Michigan private land is private land. If there is anything that distinguishes it from state and federal land then you are not allowed to use it unless you have written permission. A fence, no trespassing signs, no hunting signs are all examples of ways to distiguish, and the big one, a for sale sign tells you for sure its private property.

[TexasTimbers]

In my little corner of the world, it's a no-brainer.
Example: An uncle of mine wants to clear off his 52 acres which is approximately 80_o/^o treed. I was cruising (figuratively, I don't know how to do it literally) the property weekend before last to see what goodies I had been given and in the middle of the property, which has been neglected for 20+ years, I found a deer feeder hanging from a tree with fresh corn and cobs spriknled about and a perch about 30' high in a nearby tree. Someone has probably had this little sweet spot for no telling how long. I checked with my uncle but already knew the answer, no permission was ever sought.
I plan to be up on that perch this coming weekend, with my truck parked at the gate, I wonder if the "former owner" will attempt to come collect my new equipment (uncle said I could have it) and to attempt to charge me lease fees on his former site? :D :D 8) 8)

Trespassing is trespassing wheather you are setting up an illegal kill zone or checking out timber on private property without permission.

[Robert R]

Thanks, I appreciate the viewpoints.  I was siding with the "it is trespassing" idea but thought I would bounce it off you folks--I tend to be a bit hypersensitive.  The trees I've seen have been visible from the road.  Who knows what is in the middle.  Maybe I will call the realtor on the sign and find out the price and get permission to check it out.  It may well be worth buying.  If it is priced over what I think the trees will carry, I'll contact the landowner and see if he wants to sell some trees. 

[David_c]

Definitly differant land laws in differant parts of country. Around here if land is not posted you have every right to walk, hunt, fish, or trap or whatever you want. Putting a permant tree stand would not be considerd legal not that some don't anyway. I would just get in touch with land owner and see if he wants to sell some timber before land is sold. Let him know you noticed from road that there seems to be some merchantable timber. He may or may not know it. Good luck.

[Robert R]

Well, they're asking $4,500 an acre.  Land here usually goes for around 3.  I'm thinking he probably doesn't really want to sell it.  The realtor said he isn't a motivated seller and isn't willing to entertain offers less than asking price.  I'll give him a call and see if he'll just part with some of the trees.  I seriously doubt there's $135,000 worth of trees on there to cover the cost of the ground.

[Ron Wenrich]

He may already have an appraisal, and that's why the asking price is so high.  So, how many walnuts would you need to get $135,000?  I know of loggers who buy land and all for less than the timber is worth.

[Ernie]

Even if there isn't enough return to cover the cost of the land, it may be an idea to remember that God is not making much more land these days.

[Robert R]

I generally cut $200 trees.  The 3 I spied from the road are much nicer but I haven't ever cut anything in that class of tree before.  So I guess the honest answer to your question is "I haven't a clue".  A more experienced logger/businessman might make that off the trees.  My biggest problem would be that right around here, aside from walnut it is mostly pinoak.  I certainly wouldn't want to go in a strip all the walnuts out and leave a junk forest behind.  There is the usual smattering of persimmon, ash, hickory and few nicer oaks and even the odd elm but our little valley is definitely predominantly walnut/pinoak.

I agree with view totally, Ernie.  If it were touching my ground, I'd be much more interested.  I figure I don't want all the land, just all the land touching mine.   

[Ron Scott]

Yes, it is always best to contact the landowner or the realtor that is listing the property or both for access permission and understanding of your reasons to view the property. The landowner may already have an appraisal for the timber and know what its value is compared to the bare land value.

I do appraisals for landowners and realtors often before they set the asking price for the property. Landowners and realtors are getting smarter with consideration of the timber values (as well as other resource values) before setting their "asking" price.   ;)

I know landowners who refuse to sell their timber to timber buyers who have entered their property without permission, but will sell to the person who "asked permission".

[Corley5]

I wouldn't sell timber to someone that had been on the place without permission.  I wouldn't sell to someone that hadn't either but they'd stand a slightly better than 0 chance ;D  If I caught someone on the property they'd be dealing with the law and a trespassing violation.

[Ron Wenrich]

The local real estate companies never have timber appraisals.  They think they know a lot more than the rest of us.  They think that the real estate appraisers know more about appraising timber land than do foresters.  Must be an image problem.

[Frickman]

I never, ever enter someone's property without permission, at least intentionally. I don't have a problem contacting landowners to inquire about their timber, if they give me permission to walk their land that's great. If not, that's OK too. I get most of my timber from referrals, but I will do lot of cold calling if I'm working in an area and see some other timber.

Just because the property has a for sale sign on it, doesn't mean I can trespass on it. I feel that anytime you enter someone's property it's like entering their home, and you wouldn't walk right in someone's living room just because it had a sign out front.

[wiam]

I never, ever enter someone's property without permission, at least intentionally. I don't have a problem contacting landowners to inquire about their timber, if they give me permission to walk their land that's great. If not, that's OK too. I get most of my timber from referrals, but I will do lot of cold calling if I'm working in an area and see some other timber.

Just because the property has a for sale sign on it, doesn't mean I can trespass on it. I feel that anytime you enter someone's property it's like entering their home, and you wouldn't walk right in someone's living room just because it had a sign out front.

I am with you on this.   Some days I think the taking of property rights only leaves us the right to  throw people out. :( :(

Will