New member needs advice: Where to start?

[cedarponds]

I've been reading here for a few years and now still have questions.  I own nice woodlots on our property, about 90 acres of quite a variety of age and species in southwest Michigan. We have mature trees above 30 in. dbh and some areas of young trees just filling in on field edges.  I've sold stumpage and made out okay in 2001 and averaged $0.60/ bd ft on a sale of over 50K bd ft.  My questions:
1)  I want to work my own woodlot, should I concentrate on timberstand improvement and not harvest any trees other than the occasional windthrow?  Selling only through stumpage sales?

2)  If I buy a mill and saw 20K bd ft per year, will I get anything for my labor and capital investment?  I already have a compact fwd tractor and skidding arch, nice chain saws, other small stuff.

3)  Is there a market for the yellow poplar (tulip), aspen, red maple, basswood I will be culling as I try to improve conditions for the more valued species?

4)  Ash makes up about 10-15% of my trees, no borer yet....Should I cut and mill the ash trees which are large enough for RR ties over the next years to max value instead of doing nothing?

Thanks for all comments.  P.S. I love my woods like it is one of my kids,  I just want them to pay their own way in this world.

cedarponds

[ely]

ALL I REALLY HAVE TO add is welcome to the forum as far as posting here. i am sure someone from your neck of the woods will respond to your questions. i would advise you to get your own mill if you do any amount of personal building. anything above that , that you sell would be gravy and very satisfying also.

[Ron Wenrich]

Its a little hard to tell you exactly what to do without seeing the woodlot.  Most woodlots can benefit from timber stand improvement (TSI) work.  Before you begin, get a competent forester to give you an inventory of your woodlot, and write a plan.  The inventory should give you a direction as to what needs to be cut and what can be let grow. Make sure your objectives of TSI are stressed.  With a good idea of landowner desires, your forester should be able to make pretty good recommendations.

Sawing your own lumber has risks and rewards.  The risks are that you could get more money for your logs than milling them yourself.  The rewards are that you milled them yourself.  It depends what you would rather do with your time.  I mill all week, so, milling on the weekends isn't very appealing. 

There is a market for nearly any tree that grows in the woods.  I sell trailerloads of tulip poplar and red maple.  Red maple is worth more than red oak in today's market.  Basswood is good for the carving crowd.  There is an aspen market in your neck of the woods.

As for the ash, I don't know how close the borer is to your property.  I do know that when its dead it may be hard to move due to quarantine. 

[Robert R]

I am certainly no expert.  I have no idea what RR ties are worth when you sell them.  But being someone who uses a horse team, I do know that ash is valuable to any Amish communities you may have nearby.  Down here, I can get a $1 a boardfoot for any straight 14 foot 16+ inch ash logs I can get there as it is the preferred wood for wagon tongues.  It doesn't take an Amish community very long to run out of ash logs that are close enough for them to harvest and then, they are very willing to pay nicely (at least I think that is a nice price) for ash logs but they must be straight, straight, straight and no have spots where limbs have come off.  Just an idea to consider, especially if you decide to cull your ash trees anyway.

[thecfarm]

Just want to welcome you to the forum.Good luck with what ever you decide to do.

[Bill]

Ditto on the warm welcome to FF.

Good Luck

[estiers]

I can help you a little with the ash as I used to work for the EAB program.  Recently the entire Lower peninsula was federally quarantined for all ash products.  That means that in order to leave the state legally with ash products, such as railroad ties, you must get an inspection and a certificate before you ship.  Both of these sevices are free, and if you ever decide you need one, let me know and I can put you in contact with the people who can do it.  In my experience in SE and SW MI the Amish want to stay as far away from ash as possible.  They just don't want the hassle.

[OneWithWood]

Hi, Cedarponds.  I have been doing exactly what you are contemplating for over 20 years.  During that time I have learned a lot about my woodlot, had three harvests, each followed up with TSI work.  The woods looks very good now but there is still a lot of work that needs to be done.  Be realistic with yourself and your priorities. 

How hard and how often do you want to work in the woods?  I average about 30 hours a week working in the woods, milling, finishing and doing maintenance.  This is in addition to a full-time job.
 
Are you set up as an ongoing farm?  Talk to your district forester and develop a long range plan for the woods.  Talk to a CPA who is familiar with Forstry taxation and the govermental programs that are out there.  You can make it all work for you if it is set up properly. 

Tulip poplar and aspen make excellent dimension lumber if you need to construct some outbuildings, such as a barn to put the mill in.  Tulip poplar is also a very good wood for trim, but you would need a kiln, a good table saw and a moulder at a minimum.  Do you enjoy woodworking?  It may be that your best bet is to add value to the wood identified in your forest management plan as needing to come out to have a shot at recouping your costs.  Remember you will be harvesting the garbage so to speak.

The biggest challenge I have for the approach I have chosen is that I need to develop a market for whatever product becomes feasible as I go about the work of TSI, access road construction, wildlife management, and crop tree release.  The major constraints of time, weather and opportunity often dictate when and what I can bring out of the woods which makes it somewhat difficult to market a product before hand.  This is exactly the opposite of what most people preach when it comes to establishing a going concern.  Normally identifying your market is the first step, not the next to last step.  However, my priority is not to make a living wage from this activity at this point in time but to cover the costs of management, improve the woodlot and keep it in the black enough to satisfy the IRS.  The day is coming when I will revamp that strategy and look to make more of an income from the operation.  Unitil then I improve the woods a little bit every day.

Step one: Make an appointment with your district forester!

[cedarponds]

Thanks for the comments so far.   

Let's see... I have met with a forester and he helped me with the sale I had in 2001. He brokered the sale for 10% but I'm sure he helped me get a better price and good performance from the loggers ( We had over 8 bidders).  When I asked him to help with a management plan, he said "just keep doing what I was doing". I guess I'll ask him again or ask the extension forester for help. 

I subscribe to Sawmall and Woodlot Mag, have taken a one week climbing and precision felling training from Arbormaster training, read dozens of articles on TSI and  timber management. I'm available to work on lumber production, TSI or sawing 30hours a week.  I have worked about 10 hours/week on TSI over the last 3 years.

The info regarding the "lesser" species of trees such as tulip, ash and red maple raised my spirits about jumping into sawing on my own.  Hickory and Oak owner and forum member-"Steve V" and  member "Hawby" have been very helpful too me in the past with sawing logs either at my site or theirs.

What sawmill?  I've looked at many and want to stay under $12K and probably can't buy anything other than a manual mill.  Wood mizer sounds like the best long term value, but I can be flexible if someone can point me to a better value. 

Again, Thanks for the advice and comments.
I respect this community of posters!

[oakiemac]

Hi Phil,

Welcome to the forum. Lots of good answers and tons of knowledge here on this forum.

Who was the forester that you were using? Was it Jeff Steinkraus? If you haven't dealt with Jeff then I recommend him highly. PM or call me and I can get you his phone number.
If you decide to buy a mill then I will buy some of your lumber, but it would be the upper grade material-at least at first. Depending on how much you saw it probably would only be part of that.
RR ties would be a great use for the Ash and low grade Oak logs. I can get you names of the buyer out of wisconsin. He will send out a truck to pick them up once you get 215 of them. We could even work together where I would saw part of the load and you the other part to get a full truck load. Ash lumber around here doesnt sell to well. I have had FAS Ash boards on the self for over a year now. Flooring and trim might also be a good use for the Ash. I am getting setup to produce those kinds of products.

To let everyone know, Cedarponds has a bueatiful woodlot. Actually he has several but I have only had the pleasure of walking through one of them. He has a lot of mature trees, wetlands, and even Cedar bogs which is very unusual in southern Michigan.
Once again, welcome Cedarponds! 8)

[Ianab]

What sawmill?  I've looked at many and want to stay under $12K and probably can't buy anything other than a manual mill.

Have you looked at the swingblade mills? You could be set up with a good Lucas or Peterson for under $12k. You could use that with your existing equipment. Any log thats too big to drag out with your small tractor will be big enough to be worth dragging the mill to. Smaller logs you can skid to a central location and set the mill up there. Sawing 30" hardwood logs on a manual bandsaw sounds a lot like hard work, but swingblades love em. With smaller logs they dont really have an advantage over a bandmill, but they will saw them perfectly well, especially if you can set up a decent log deck and clamps etc. If you are doing TSI and selective harvesting you can do a pretty low impact job with a portable swingblade mill, as opposed to crashing around with a big skidder dragging out trees.

After that, it's really the marketing of your end products that decides if it's worth while.

Cheers

Ian

[cedarponds]

Hi Okiemac,

Thanks for the nice words about my woods, I like to know others appreciate the care people have taken over the years to create these nice woodlots.  Woodlots are like beautiful architecture, they take care to create and last longer than any person's life.

Tom Stadt is the forester I have used.  Tom's business is called Tree-Tech and is out of Augusta, MI.  Tom is a great guy and probably a little too busy for my scale of woods.  Tom manages Pfizer's woodlots and helped many people in sw MI after the big blow in October 2001 including the Sherman Lake YMCA.

A swingblade saw is of interest to me.  I like Baileys' Lucas but worry it would be hard to saw small 8-12" logs on one of these things.  If I saw 20K bd ft in a year I don't need much of a saw and can always bring in a hydraulic unit like a WM LT 40 for a couple of days when I need to mill the big stuff, or sell those logs off after skidding them to the landing.

Anyway, Thanks all for the comments...
cedarponds

[Ianab]

Small logs aren't HARD to saw as long as you set up the bunks right, stage the logs up on some sort of deck, have a good dogging system etc. They are just a PAIN to saw because you dont get many boards from each log, you seem to spend 1/2 the time loading the next log and the quality of the boards usually isn't that good  : But thats the problem with small logs, no matter what mill you choose.

But yeah, plenty of options to consider 

Cheers

Ian