Can't find this one in the book ...

[TexasTimbers]

I could have gotten a better specimen had I been paying better attention. I can't find this in my books. Any clues?

[WDH]

Looks like a shade leaf from a Black Oak.  What did the bark look like? 

[limbrat]

yea it does favor black jack probably came from a hill with poor soil.

[SwampDonkey]

Be careful, black oak Q. velutina is different than blackjack oak Q. marilandica. I think you all mean blackjack oak, and I would agree. The black oak is more similar to northern red oak or scarlet oak leaves, the leaf shape can favor either species.

[TexasTimbers]

But it looks completely different than the Black Jack Oak leaves I posted in the "Double-Checking" thread that we all prety much agree is BJ. The leaf above has a different shape and although y'all can't tell it from pictures the leaf about is about 7 times bigger than the one we agree are BJ.

Well, AFA size the cover of that book the leaf is on is 9" x 12".

[WDH]

I still think it is Black Oak, Quercus velutina.  The shade leaves on Black Oak are highly variable, and I have seen some that are this large and not distinctly lobed.  There probably is some pubescence on the midrib, a characteristic of BO, especially early in the season.  Of the Oaks, to me, Black Oak has the most variable leaves.  The sun leaves are very lobed and pointed and look at lot like cherrybark (except the BO sunleaves do not have the contrasting color of the top versus the underside that is characteristic of Cherrybark and Southern Red).  The shade leaves are ususally much larger and more blobish, if that makes any sense, very indistinctly lobed or not lobed at all.

[SwampDonkey]

kev, sometimes shade leaves of certain species will grow bigger and a bit distorted. More surface area is required to absorb the less intensity light for photosynthesis. This is where a lot (most all) of id books fall short.



This particular species will produce larger leaves to get a jump in height growth when suckering off roots following a harvest. It's 2 year old aspen in a clear cut. The normal leaf size is usually about 2-1/2 to 3 inches wide. I would hazard a guess that it is large toothed aspen, but notice no teeth on the leaf margins. ;)

[SwampDonkey]

If WDH is familiar with the variability of black oak, and I don't have any reason to assume otherwise, then I would go with his assertion on this one. These tree species are not native to my area, so I wouldn't have the experience with their variability in different situations. The lower leaf lobes now have me convinced it's not black jack oak. My text does show a wide variation in leaf shape of black oak, but only shows shapes indicative of northern white and scarlet oak as explained above. Could be a whole host of variations in between.

[WDH]

While not a perfect match with your specimen, here is a website with a pic of a Black Oak shade leaf.  It is a little more lobed that yours, but I have seen a number of relatively unlobed shade leaves.

http://www.duke.edu/~cwcook/trees/quve.html

[TexasTimbers]

Wow. That's the thing that frustrates me so about tree I.D. How come trees don't just come with a sign that grows on the trunk

"Howdy there Kevin, I'm a Southwestern Jericho Wobbling Postnut Oak. Currently I contain 347BF of FAS, 155BF of Clear and I have no metal. I contain a little burl and even a little spalting. Keep your saw in the truck; back your trailer up to me and  I will just fall over for you . . . ."

WDH, that leaf in your link is so different from the one I posted, and to know that they could still be from the same speicies makes me think I will never be able to identify some trees.  :(

I think it's time to get that 10X lens and a Textbook of Wood Technology. Don't tell me, let me guess, that's not quite exact either.  ???

[SwampDonkey]

It's very definitive kev, you just have to become familiar with it and know that some properties are the same for other species, but there is always a property or two that makes it stand out. You might find trouble when you get down to soft maple for instance, which could mean red maple, silver maple, big leaf maple and such. Not so bad when you have some bark or twigs still on the tree because buds are fairly definitive also. Same goes for the oaks. After you have separated whether it's a red oak or a white oak, it can be difficult to find the exact species without looking at other features. I think there is one or two white oak than may or may not have tylosis in the pores.  :

[Ron Wenrich]

If the trees handy, black oak will have a yellow inner bark.  Take a pocket knife and drill a hole into the bark.  If its black oak, there will be some yellow inner bark that will appear.  Black oak is the only oak with yellow inner bark.

[WDH]

Black Oak makes identification more frustrating than most, so don't despair.  Whenever anyone brings me or describes to me a weird oak leaf, it is invariably Black Oak.  I call it the oak of many disguises!  Ron is right about the yellow inner bark.  So, take hope.  Most trees behave consistently;most have only one leaf shape.  However, there are a few bad actors you have to learn, and black oak can be challenging.  I rely very heavily on bark, as it seems more consistent to me.  Black Oak bark will be very dark, black, and will not exhibit the silver streaking up the trunk of Northern Red or Shumard or Scarlet.  It will stay black all the way up the trunk.

[Phorester]

Ron beat me to the inner bark description.  That's what I use to confirm black oak over other oaks.

I also look up into the tree tops to check for leaves for ID purpose, not the lower leaves.  As has already been said, lower leaves of many trees are misshapen due to their growing into wierd shapes to get as much sunlight as possible.

[TexasTimbers]

So the consensus is that it is "Black Oak" and not "Black Jack Oak"?

[WDH]

In the tree ID manuals, black oak leaves have been described as being up to 11" in length.  It is possible that a blackjack oak leaf could get this big, but I have never seen one that size.  The definitive thing to do to be sure is to get a leaf sample from the upper portion of the tree, and if it is black oak, the sun leaf will be smaller with a number of sharply pointed lobes.  Blackjack oak leaves will look approximately the same in shape from the bottom of the crown to the top, although the lower shade leaves will be larger.  Given the picture you posted, my vote is shade leaf black oak.

[Phorester]

KEVJAY, Right now I'd say the consensus is black oak.  That was my first thought when I saw your leaf picture, but I was waiting for more info.  Some leaves are obvious, but most times I have to look at the entire tree when I'm trying to ID it. I look at several leaves, the bark, branch angle, overall shape, etc. Especially if I think it's a black oak, I go straight for my pocketknife to carve into the bark. 

Check the inner bark and see what this tells you.  This yellow (some people call it orange) inner bark is throughout the entire tree, in the limbs too.  But this color fades fast after the tree or limb is cut.  If it lays exposed for a while, it dries out and the color is pretty much gone.

[TexasTimbers]

I am planning on dropping one of the small sycamores today so I will open the bark on the presumed Black Oak and check for color.
i sure have learned alot from this thread so far. You veteran IDers probably don't remember when you started hearing terms like "sun leaves" and "shade leaves" and realizing there was so much you didn't know, you didn't even know how much you didn't know. I should read some of my ID books cover to cover instead of just opening them to try and match up a leaf or a bark.

Here's a close up of the bark phorester but I am going to give it the definitive test this aternoon when I look for yellow.