Sawing for Market?

[dad2nine]

Hi everyone, As you may or may not know I've had my WM sawmill for a little less than a year now. Sawed here and there mostly for furniture makers and hooked up with an established miller with two operational band mills and stocked log yard. They mostly saws for farmers, I mostly saw for furniture makers. He invited me to park my mill out at his yard and use his facilities, so I did. It's a saw mill's heaven out there, 5 acres of logs most anything that grows local is there. We have been sawing as the orders come in and when I get an urge to run the mill, some hardwood for furniture makes and softwood for farmers, trailer decking, heck even enough SYP for a small barn. The relationship has worked out very well, he helps me with my orders and I help him with his. We split everything pretty even, considering I'm using his logs and facilities. I'm very happy with the arrangement.

The question is we would like to expand a little and saw up enough for a TT load of one species for market. I think we have enough to make up 8000BF of poplar, red oak, white oak, walnut, hickory, SYP and some others... We have a certified grader that can come in when we need him to grade the lumber, we have the means to cut the lumber, we have a driver to deliver the lumber. But how in the world do we get the lumber to market and what are the rules as far as length width, thickness and what is market value?

Any insight would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

[Bibbyman]

You already know you need to find the markets for lumber.  The place I'd start is your state forestry department.  They should have a directory of lumber buyers in your state.

Get this list and start making calls.  Most will tell you what they're buying and how much they're paying.  Once you find a place that's buying what you've got to sale,  find out how they want it. 

There are hardwood grading rules but most places have their own deviations and subsets of rules.   For example,  4/4 lumber is probably suppose to be some set thickness depending on species.  But we have sawn oak from anywhere from a full 1" to a full 1-1/4" depending on the buyers. 

The place we're taking lumber to now wants 4/4 1-1/8" thick but will not reject anything from 1" to 1-3/8".  That's a lot of forgiveness.  But they won't buy boards that are short and narrow like is covered by the rules.

Some places will insist on lumber being graded and pre-sorted by grade before you bring it.  Usually they're only buying one or two grades.  We're too small to deal with that and don't have a grader.  So we try to keep each load the same species and same thickness, but mix the grade.

The latest place we are marketing to allows you to mix white and red oak in the same bundle.  That makes it real handy.  We've never been able to do that before.

We've had places not buy from us because we can't ship a trailer truck load at a time.  Even if we arranged the trucking,  it'd be very difficult for us to wack out that many board feet before it started to stain from setting too long.  So we kind let our grade logs pile up until we have enough to make a load then saw it, put it on the truck and run it to the broker.

Good luck.  It's hard to break into this type of business. You'll need to "network" and keep calling around and learn the language.

[dad2nine]

Bibbyman - Thanks for the reply, I called around and talked to a few sawyers in the state. Got one lead, that I will follow up on tomorrow. Also got one offer to broker our lumber, but initial thoughts are it would be better to work directly with the purchaser but not sure? We really need to move some lumber, the logs keep coming in and piling up, which is not a bad thing mind you, but they really are not don't much good just laying either. I think with 3 saw mills running I think we could whack out a tractor trailer load pretty quick. Is it a requirement to stick the lumber (which will help with the staining problem) or is that based on the purchaser preference?

Can anyone point me to "market value" since I have no idea what market value of a particular species is I may find out it's not worth it.

I guess I'll find out more tomorrow.

Thanks

[Ron Wenrich]

I'm running a circle mill, and produce a trailerload of grade lumber in a little better than 1 day.  A lot depends on the logs and markets.   

My experience has been that you will have a hard time moving any type of lumber if you have less than 1000 bf of any given species.  Its also a lot easier to move lumber through some sort of concentration yard.  They will use a lot of different grades and different species, so they can take almost what you can saw.

Most species grade out FAS, F1F, 1 Common, 2A Common, 2B Common, and 3 Common.  For most species, the price of 2A or less doesn't make it very attractive to saw.  Its best to not chase those grades and put that into some sort of pallet stock.  I saw 3 1/2" by 6" stock and don't get too much of the lower grades.

As for size, you don't want lumber less than 4" wide and 4' in length.  But, some buyers won't even buy that small.  Upper grade boards should be at least 6" x 8'.  You won't make any money cutting short logs, with the exception of walnut or cherry.  Maximum length board is 16'.  Knot placement and size has a lot to do with determining grade.

Lumber doesn't need to be stickered to be sent to a yard.  But, it should be from fresh cut logs and it shouldn't be dead piled for too long.  White woods will stain in less than a few days in hot weather.  We use an antistain spray that will retard stain on tulip poplar.  Some yards will not allow any stain.

You will probably have to separate the lengths of your lumber.  Our standard separation is 8' and shorter, 9 & 10', 11 & 12', and 13' & longer. 

We don't grade our lumber to send to any of our buyers.  But, we do pull out the junk and only send a well manufactured stick of wood.  We get a good grade from our buyers due to the manufacturing quality.  If lumber is poorly trimmed, they tend to get a little hard on the lumber. 

If you have a grader at your disposal, he may be able to give you direction for sales.  At a minimum, I would have him come in and give you some pointers on lumber grades. 

[dad2nine]

Just got off the horn with a concentration yard owner, seemed like a real nice guy. They have rules as far as the different species and said they grade when the load comes in and I can watch em grade if I want too. Anyways he's going to drop me an email with pricing and rules. Depending on price we may give this a shot and see how it works out. I appreciate the responses, as I learn more I'll let ya'll know.

Thanks

[Tom Sawyer]

Is there anything like a concentration yard in Southern Ontario that any of you Canadian guys know about?  This thread is interesting to me because I am contemplating something like this too.  Thanks for starting it.

Tom

[Ron Wenrich]

We used to sell to Rimprex, but they are outside of Montreal.  We also sell to Baillie, which is outside of Buffalo.  Both companies pick up at our mill.

[dad2nine]

Hey guys want to let you know I received a price list from the concentration yard owner along with a few rules 

* NHLA grade rules to apply
* 5 Length sort
* F1F & Btr to be 6"x8' in all white woods and 5"x7' in Walnut

This particular yard uses the Appalachian Hardwood Market Report which is published weekly for pricing and they + or - Appalachian Hardwood Market Report price. To be honest with you when you sit down and do the math, I really don't think their prices are bad at all and quite fair, more than I thought they would be. This yard will only take a min of 8MBF at a time (TT Load)  but will do a mixed load as long as it's not under 4 MBF per species. So that's what we're going to do, 4 MBF of 8/4 White oak and 4 MBF of 8/4 Black Walnut. The yard is only buying green Black Walnut, Ash, Poplar and White Oak at this time.

I'll try and keep you guys posted on how this goes, it's completely new to me. I'm glad I found some place that will buy larger quantities of green lumber. We really do need to get the boards out of the logs and get boards out the front gate.

Thanks

[Bibbyman]

Hey guys want to let you know I received a price list from the concentration yard owner along with a few rules 

* NHLA grade rules to apply
* 5 Length sort
* F1F & Btr to be 6"x8' in all *Pink* woods and 5"x7' in Walnut

This particular yard uses the Appalachian Hardwood Market Report which is published weekly for pricing and they + or - Appalachian Hardwood Market Report price. To be honest with you when you sit down and do the math, I really don't think their prices are bad at all and quite fair, more than I thought they would be. This yard will only take a min of 8MBF at a time (TT Load)  but will do a mixed load as long as it's not under 4 MBF per species. So that's what we're going to do, 4 MBF of 8/4 *Pink* oak and 4 MBF of 8/4 Black Walnut. The yard is only buying green Black Walnut, Ash, Poplar and *Pink* Oak at this time.

I'll try and keep you guys posted on how this goes, it's completely new to me. I'm glad I found some place that will buy larger quantities of green lumber. We really do need to get the boards out of the logs and get boards out the front gate.

Thanks

Sounds good.  But *Pink* woods is a new one on me.  Must be some term used somewhere else.   

I think most places price pretty close to the Hardwood Report.  But where they get you is in the grading. 

We sent a couple of loads to our local broker and got what we figured it was wroth.  Then the second two were way short.  Out of about 2,800 bf they only found a couple of % FAS and 1F.  On one load of 1,400 bf of red oak they found no FAS boards at all when I felt there was at least 300 bf of FAS.

We took the next load to a different broker and did much better but still not as good as we thought it should. 

We've taken the last two loads to yet a third broker and did about what we figured the lumber should grade.

Pretty much the same lumber, paying a lower price as prices have soften some but the check in hand was double what the first place was paying.

Like they say in mule trading,  education costs.    

It's good that you have a grader available.  Have the grader look your lumber over to get an idea of what you've got going to the broker and then set down with him after you get the tally back and see how they compare.

[Ron Wenrich]

I have to agree with Bibbyman about grades.  But, I wonder why you're focusing in on 8/4.  I know it pays good, but some logs just shouldn't be cut into 8/4.  You'll end up with boards that are FAS on the front and 2 Com on the back.   Quite often these boards would have yielded a 1 Face board in a thinner cut, like 4/4.  It all depends on how well you can read a log.

Some concentration yards don't like the lower grades in the heavier stock.  Most times I get quoted prices for F1F & Btr.  They will allow you to send a small amount under that grade.  Usually, the heavy stock goes into specialty molding and needs the higher grades.

You should also be developing some 4/4 when you cut.  There are some logs that will give you better yield by cutting a 4/4 and an 8/4 instead of a heavy slab and an 8/4.  Put this lumber on sticks until you develop enough for your markets.

Also, 8/4 should be cut at 2 1/4" instead of 2 1/8".  Most of my 8/4 markets demand this thickness. 

[Bibbyman]

We sawed a couple hundred thousand board feet of walnut and other hardwoods for one log broker.  He sorted the best logs out and wanted them sawed 8/4.  Most of the rest he wanted 6/4.  We'd saw one or the other to get a load.  We'd pull a 4/4 board off the ouside now and then and put back. Every couple of loads we'd have a bundle of 4/4.

I feel to get the most out of logs it'd be best to make 4/4 on the outsides and then 8/4 (if you're making 8/4) out of the inside of the bigger, better logs.  Then put the heartsaws back into 4/4.

I always felt I could get more bf sawing 4/4 - especialy the small logs but he was the customer.

[dad2nine]

pink was some automatic word change by this board  : it's - W H I T E-.

Just called again, they take boards upto 16'6" and as wide as we can get 22" wide is no problem. They pay net 30 (mail you a check in 30 days) or 2% 10 (subtract 2% and mail you a check in 10 days).

Why 8/4? it's easier to mill and fetches the most $$$. I'm pretty sure we'll have a bunk of 4/4 or 5/4 for each species, opening, second and maybe third face cuts and probably around the pith since pith is considered a defect. I would rather edge 4 or 5/4 than 8/4 any day that's for sure.

With regards to actual thickness, 4/4 is expected to be at least 1 1/8" and 8/4 2 and 1/8 (WM quarter scale)?

Thanks for all the replies, you guys are a great help.