Starting Green!!!

[tree dude]

Thats right folks a new member wanting to know any & everything he can find out about getting a sawmill buisness to start makeing a little jingle.Got the mill LD40HD25 W.M.Got logs to be cut, Know how to use it. So!! all I need now is a little help with getting started. The info I need is,who wants to buy it? How do I market it? Which way to cut it is best? Cants or diminsional lumber? Needles to say Im STARTING GREEN.
         Im partners with my Dad in a tree buiness thats pretty well est. so I got a pretty descent supply of logs, different kinds on pretty regular bassis. What are my options? I am eager to learn as much as possible as quick as possible!!! I hope you all will share as much knowledge as you can    8)

[crtreedude]

Welcome on board.

Given your source of logs - one thing you might make sure you have is a metal detector. If you don't already know it, lawn trees and such are great sources of metal and a thin kerf on a saw can somehow manage to find it when all else fails.

Some of our members seem pretty good at sawing parts of their mill too but I assume that is a more advanced skill.  :

[tree dude]

Yep ran into a nail or two,here and there.Have run into a railroad spike once when I was felling a tree.

[Faron]

Tree Dude, It will depend a great deal on just what is going on in your area.  Is there a crosstie manufacturer in your area?  Pallet plant?  Is there a business around that buys, dries, and sells grade lumber? A woodworker's club?  Are there lots of people with horses? They may need fencing and barn material.  Can you stack and store  grade lumber and air dry it to a wait for a customer?  You will probably find it will take a number of approaches.  If you have a free supply of good logs of the right species, it sounds like a good setup to me.  Especially if you are already being paid to remove them. ;D

[tree dude]

yes sir, we can store it ok but some peaple have said that dimensional lumber is hard to sell and costly to cut,is that true? And also how do you market it? 8)

[fencerowphil (Phil L.)]

Congrats on the mill, tree dude!

In, roughly, the last month I have done about $2800 worth
of custom sawing.  (Why it came in time with this heat I don't know.)

In three of the jobs, there was extra wood for me.  That means mucho
extra work.   I won't get paid for that wood I brought home for a
year or more.  On the other hand, I got paid that day for the sawing I did
for the customer.  Unless I know that I can turn the green wood almost
immediately,  those boards have to have a foundation, sticks, and cover, and NOW!

This is to say that, BELIEVE YOU ME, there is often more clean and
clear money in just the custom sawing.  In other words,  the customer
owns the logs and gets the pleasure of stacking and caring for the product.
Great advice you have received so far!  I would add that, when you cut
your own logs, plan to do one of two things:  Cut unusual cuts or cut for
a known market.  When you have no idea of which way to go with a batch
of logs, either hold them (wet store, sprinkle, etc.) OR even sell them.

You may find reasons to saw every decent log your tree service can get.
On the other hand you may not.  Be open to custom sawing for others.

This next comment ties to the fact that most tree guys I know buck
logs into lengths based on felling needs/safety quite often.  Other times it is for
the sake of the logs.  Now you are going to be thinking more about the log.
That metal detector should check your logs before they hit the ground,
if you are running a tree service.   That way your skidsteer, etc. knows
which trailer to load that log on - the trash one or the one going to your
log holding area.   Most of the time, also, you will decide where to buck
your sawlogs according to the length desired, and THEN where the metal is.   In yard trees,
you  see many a log with a branch or two too low.    That simple decision
of where to lop off a short lower section could make the difference between
fine grade oak, for example, versus short pallet stock.

Phil L.

[ARKANSAWYER]

  Just load up some clothes and gloves and kiss the little lady bye for a few days and travel north east 5 hours to Yellville Arkansas and spend some time with me.  I will cram your head with so much info that you will be dizzy for weeks and work you so hard that you did not know you could hurt in them places.  ;D
  If you cut it well most any thing will sell.  Look to your local State Forestry Service and they should have a list of local processors.

[tree dude]

Thanks guys,
     Appreciate all the good info so far, hope to get as much info as possible as I am the student here.do have different lengths to cut from exactly the reasons you described there Fencerowfil. Would probably gain a vast amount of knowledge there Arkansawyer but going to try to see if I can generate a little work here,if I do get up that way i will stop in and we can sit around drink coffee and tell lies. 8)

[Rodney Sinclair]

Tree Dude, a couple years back, I was DJing an event out out the fairgrounds. Would you by any chance be the guy that I talked to who was doing the cookin?

Rodney

[tree dude]

Hey Rodney,
  I dont think so, but ifi can help you out just let me know. 8)

[Cedarman]

Do not feel you need to hold the lumber for the top dollar.  Because at this time you don't know what top dollar is.  After you gain experience selling wood, you will learn where the value is.  If you saw your wood, sell it for the best deal you can get at this time.  You might stack some of the wood that is of the best quality.
Have you been to a week long lumber grading short course?  That course will help you with grading your lumber so that you know where the value is for the industrial markets.  Burl and specialty markets are a different bird.
Starting off you could be spending as much time finding markets and selling as you do the other work.  Until you are long established, people do not know you exist.  You must figure out where to get your name out.  Signs on truck, notices on bulletin boards, let the paper do a human interest story.  Contact every lumber yard, every company that manufactures anything that goes on unusual pallets.  Any company that needs blocking etc.

Since you don't have too much tied up in log costs, you have a cost advantage over others.

Have a set number of potential customers you call each day.  Some you might call to get info for a later sales lead.  Talk to the secretary to find out what the company does and what they use and what they buy.

Sawing is the easy part, selling and marketing are the challenges.  Who gets the most bucks in a company, salesman or head sawyer?

[fencerowphil (Phil L.)]

I am always interested in what Cedarman has to say about marketing.

You will be amazed to find how many opportunities you have to promote
the sawing or the lumber as you travel with your tree service work.  One simple
step is just being sure you always give a business card for both businesses.  Make
that travel time and fuel cost do double duty.  Do you have a truck on certain
days that could pull the mill?  On those days pull the mill with you. When you
stop to cut, tie a large vinyl banner to the mill:  NOW WE CAN SAW LUMBER!
CALL 555) 555-iCut"

Free classified ads on the internet is helpful, such as Craig's List.

If you are referring to dimension pine lumber for utility and farm use, the big
mill competition is tough, but you have a 15cent to 22cent per board ft. advantage
with the "free" logs. 
Flyer for farmers:   " Will be cutting utility lumber 3rd and 4th Saturday of September.
                                Green off the saw at _____ per board ft."
Research and set a low-ball price and saw.

Phil L.

[tree dude]

Great stuff guys,did't know there would be so much stuff to take into consideration.I do have another ? what is the easiest way to fig bft Ihave done some practice figs but am coming up with wierd stuff.Have checked out other places ,just ain't gettin it.

[beenthere]

BdFt for the log, go to the forum tool box. You will find the calculators there.

BdFt for a board, figure 1" x 12" x 12" to be one bd ft.   Or surface measure 1" thick.

An example of what you are practicing on, would maybe help us help you out with the easiest way.

For a quick way on lumber stacked solid or stickered, estimate the average length (in feet) of the boards in each layer, and then measure the width (in feet). That will give you square feet for a layer. Then estimate the thickness, and if 1", you have the board feet already. Adjust up as thickness goes up by 1/4 inch. Multiply by the number of layers.

For individual boards, there are scale sticks used to measure bd ft.

[fencerowphil (Phil L.)]

I ended up making what I call a "Tally Sheet."    It has a listing of various dimension lumber,
with a line for different lengths.  Each line shows what amount of bd.ft. will be in each piece
of that length.

This sheet can be used to do an ongoing count by taping it to the saw and making a tally
mark on the appropriate line with each cut, or can be used to do a count in a complete stack.
Since a swingblade saw is so flexible in dodging defects, I often have quite a mix of cuts, so this
sheet comes in handy.  I have used this sheet as I saw, or at the end of each day, or just at the
end of a sawing job for  a total count.

A more common way to count up  would be this:  EXAMPLE

In front of me I have a lumber stack.  
I have made it 4 ft. wide.   (factor of 4 surface feet)
I have made it 12 ft. long   (factor of 12 surface feet)
The boards are nominal 1" thick.  (factor of 1 board foot per surface board foot)
In a stack like this, 4X12X1 = 48 bd.ft. per layer of the stack.

If the stack is 30 layers, then that is 4X12X 1.0 thick X 30 layers = 1440 bd.ft.

If the boards are 5/4, then the stack would be 4X12 X 1.25 thick  X  30 layers = 1820 bd.ft.

If the boards are 8/4, then the stack would be 4X12 X 2.00 thick  X  30 layers = 2880 bd.ft.

(NOTE:   If some boards are warped and the layers in a stack have some gaps, you can
              either deduct a percentage estimated error or do an actual count of every board.
              If you think that a total gap per layer is say 2 inches, that knocks off a percentage of
              4.2%.)
One thing is sure... you want to have a good grip on how much lumber you are trying to sell,
whether it is by the board, by the layer, or by the stack.   How much lumber is it?
Basically, a board ft. is a board with a surface of one square foot and is one inch thick.  
Specialty thin cutting (thinner tha 1" on purpose) is still counted as if it is at least 1" thick,
because it takes extra work to cut thin stuff.   If it is thicker than 1.25", you would count it
accordingly, as shown above.

All of these are a board foot:

                   a  1X12     1' long
                   a  1X6       2' long
                   a  1X4       3' long
                   a  2X6       1' long

I know I am taking this too far, but you never know who may be asking the same questions.
One never knows which way of looking at a problem with make that old noggin' say,
" OOOOh! That's what that is!"

PHil L.

[tree dude]

Wow great tools,took me a minute to find it but well worth it. Now if Ican get it goin ill be set. Just one more thing, whats a fair price to charge nothing set in stone you see,just a general idea would be very helpful.

[DanG]

Welcome, tree dude!   Having a tree service and a sawmill is an enviable position to be in, for sure.  Just be sure to take care of your core business first.  That will most likely be the arborist work, with the sawmill business as a sideline.  I would hesitate to advertise the sawmill in conjunction with the tree service, unless you intend to compensate your tree service customers in some way.  I sure wouldn't take the mill to a customer's site so he could see all the lumber you get out of his tree.  People tend to look at a $500 stack of lumber and think it is worth thousands, unless they are buying, then it's the other way around.  : :D

[tree dude]

Yes sir,
Iknow exactly what you mean if I were to cut wood on there lot they might want to charge me to take down there tree.Just dont see thhat hapening any time soon.Might give a discount on taking it down if am going to cut wood for them. 8)

[fencerowphil (Phil L.)]

HOME WORK ASSIGNMENT    :P     :P      :P

Is your first objective to profitably saw and market your own wood,
   or to saw for others?

What do the other sawyers in your area charge and how?
           Do they charge primarily by the board ft. cut?
           Do more of them charge by the hour?
           What is their minimum fee or minimum bd. ft. to come cut?

Are sawyers plentiful in your area, or scarce?

Are these other sawyers set up fixed or do they readily saw at the customer's site?
Do you plan to stay portable or set up a log lot and cutting area and stay there, in
    which case you could offer log pickup and transport to your facility (for a fee, of course)?

We have to leave some homework up to you, now don't we? :

Phil L.

[tree dude]

Dag Nab It,
    you figured me out Iwas tryin to get by without doin a bunch of extra credit work.But seriously I'm tryin to learn as much as I can so that I dont make a lot of costly mistakes.
Also as far as I know there isnt that many small sawyers in my area.could be wrong though,and as far as I know Im kinda leving my options open as far as the milling goes.Probably goin to try a little of both to see where it takes me and to see which is more profitable, nothin set in stone yet. 8)

[jpgreen]

Dang has a good point.  The business's work well for you, but not in all cases for sure.

I had a guy want to get rid of pine logs that a logger friend of mine fell for him. He was happy as a clam that I had picked up all those logs, and got them off his property until he found out I did stump grinding, THEN he wanted stump grinding services for the logs he had already given me..  : ;D

[DanG]

nothin set in stone yet. 8)

And, ya need to keep it that way!  You're gonna need to keep your milling business flexible.  While you should have a steady supply of logs from your tree service, you won't have any control of the sort of logs you get.  You'll be in a situation where you have to take what you get and sell what you got. ;)

[tree dude]

Yes sir, the only thig is figuring out the best plan of atack.Gues I'll be geting on the phone tommorow calling tye ,pallet,factorys and see if i can find a place that will buy various L&W cants.Ben beatin this keyboard for a sollid week.Got a lot of SYPine logs vareying from 8to20 long ready to cut just trying to figure out what sizes to cut it,a lot of it is pretty dry and ready. 8)

[KarenKae]

The guys have all given you great advice.  Arky's HANDS ON tutorial here in North Central Arkansas is worth WAY more than you could afford to learn in trial and error, so try to get up here as soon as you can.
On a helpful note, however, we have a printed price list that is posted on our website.
Google Arkansawyer and click on the prices link.  I built the chart for pine and cedar boards so far.  In North Central Arkansas, around 50 cents a board foot for pine and 80 cents a board foot for cedar is the average retail quote but I have calculated each board for a set price. Longer boards and speciality cuts run a little higher, but you are welcome to print out the list from the site and see how that compares to prices in your area.  The reason we set that up was so we could use QuickBooks accounting to run the business.  You have to have an ITEM number for each product as well as a cost and retail figure to get the reports you need to see how the business is running. 
We charge 25 cents a board foot to cut up the customer's logs with a $20 fee EACH occurance of metal ( nails, wire, bullets, ect)  I keep a sample of stuff we have removed from trees to show and CAREFULLY explain the charge so they are not surprised later.
We only deal in cash or local checks. We do not offer credit card sales since that is an expense and Arky is building this expansion from scratch.
Like he already said.. HE CAN fill your head with so much stuff! He has BEEN there and DONE that!
Come and see us! Take 71 DUE NORTH turn right at 412 East till you get here! ( I would send you that way!) the EASIER ride is East on I 30 to Little Rock, follow the US  Hwy 65 North signs till you get up to just outside of Harrison, then hang a right and follow US HWY 62 till you get here!
Can't miss us, tall timber framed sheds on right hand side of the road just east of Yellville.

[tree dude]

Thank You Mam,I will try toget up that way as soon as I can.But one problem Im running into is how to srart selling this wood what my best market is going to be,just all those small things huh!!! I have been calling everybody trying to see what i can do no luck yet
8)