Building with rough sawed wood.

[Woodchuck53]

Evening all, not sure if this is the right spot. Talking to a fellow from another area about sawmills. He asked if I had heard that homes can no longer be built out of rough cut lumber because it wasn't tested for structural integrity. It had no stamp so there fore could not be used to build with. He said he hadn't heard anything about out buildings and such. Well I called the city inspector here in town and he said no rough cut can be used in our parish or the twin city's. I then called the most respected lab here in town who also is a good friend and he says that it isn't so. Well I haven't finished the rebuild as yet but will anyway of course, but this is disturbing news. Is any thing like this happening any where else or is it just a rumor. Calling back to the insp. office they don't even know this guy that I mentioned I talked to the other day. I'm due to rotate home soon so I will go there in person and see. Will let you know what I find out for our area. Have a good one, Chuck

[stonebroke]

When NY went with the international building code( big Mistake) some inspectors rejected rough cut because it wasn't stamped. Under the old building code, we had a exemption put in in 1989. Farm Bureau had to scramble and get the exemption put in the new building code.You folks in other states should talk to your Farm Bureau and get it put in your codes.Best thing since sliced bread.

Stonebroke

[Toolman]

In my township rough cut can be used on any structure that is'nt considered habitable. Garage, shed, barn,even decking. All structures considered habitable requires stamped wood.

Wonder where I can buy one of those stamps?  ;D  ???

[LOGDOG]

Chuck,

  Are you down there by Alexandria? I can't give you an answer one way or the other but I have had this conversation with another gentleman in South LA. Our solution to the question was that we would (if necessary) just have someone from the SOuthern Pine Council come on up and stamp our lumber. It wouldn't pay if you had a small quantity but if it were a major project you'd just build the expense into the job. I don't think it comes down to it being "rough cut" so much as it does "un-inspected". There are several companies in our state that do a huge business selling reclaimed wood that is both rough cut and un-inspected. I'd like to ask your city inspector how he allows wood from these vendors to go into structures in his locale. I'll be interested to hear what develops from this. Keep us posted.

LOGDOG

[TexasTimbers]

You can legally stamp your own wood supposedly. I was reading up on it about 3 years ago when I was contemplating grade sawing. 3 computer crashes later, there is no way i can remember where I read it.

[Tom]

There was some studying done on it about the time that Arkansawyer was trying to get his business financed.

Here is a fairly length thread on his 2" stamp.  It makes some pretty good reading.

[Toolman]

I think this "ink law" was created by big lumber company lobbyist. Again with these da*n lobbyist. White or yellow pine 2x are crap at big box stores. How some of this stuff passes as to be stamped is amazing. Home Depot in our town does sell nice fir though. Problem is it's not always avaiable. I built small addition to house couple years ago with fir studs. Even found some Hem-Fir. After inspection was done, all interior wood used from my sawmill.

[TexasTimbers]

I think this "ink law" was created by big lumber company lobbyist. Again with these da*n lobbyist.

No way!!! They wouldn't do something to hurt the small business owner would they?! ;)

Thanks for the reference Tom. That is certainly a good read, well a good re-read. I printed it off for later, not that I will ever really need to know it . . . hopefully. 

[Woodchuck53]

Morning Logdog, yep halfway between Pineville and Marksville. When I get home I will make the time to get to town and try and have a face to face with these people. With the scare on Formosan termites I would think they had there hands full. A lot of that vintage wood is migrating north from New Orleans. Will print out the link and read tonight. Will also drop a line to Baton Rouge and see what transpires. Will let you guys know. Have a good one. Chuck

[Dan_Shade]

sometimes, if it is for your house, you can have a note added into the deed book at the courthouse if you purposefully do something against code.   Of course this may cause you headaches down the road i.e. selling or insurance.

[Tom]

Actually, the grade stamp is Industry induced.   That is the reason that there are different rules of use depending upon where you live.  Building and Zoning departments fall into the trap and cause citizens grief by writing codes that say "Must be #2 as dictated by the Southern Pine Bureau", rather than saying "Must be equal to, or better, than #2 as dictated by the Southern Pine Bureau".  I am paraphrasing, of course.

Building codes have a place.  Building inspections have a place.  But the interpretation of code tends to relieve the inspectors of liability, as well as relieve them from the task of gaining the knowledge to make the distinction.  It allows them to look for Ink rather than the functionality of the wood.

One of the most ridiculous judgements I've heard about was a customer of mine, working off of his own approved plans, who had replaced a overhead beam on his garage with 2x12's rather than the 2x10's on the plan.  He finally was able to use them, but the building inspector was adament about his taking them down because the plan called for 2x10's.   My customer finally was approved by the inspector who was in charge of the department, an old time carpenter who saw the logic, the use and the wood rather than the paper plan.

We could fix a lot of this if people would just get out and vote.  Find someone who has common sense and get him to run.  Then vote him in.   It really works.  It works for tax assessors, city councilmen and all the bureaucrats who work for them.  It takes time, but it won't happen if people don't get off of their duff, vote their heart and make their Government do what they expect of them.

If you don't like the building codes, get them rewritten.  It takes a volume of citizens on a mission sometimes.

[brdmkr]

Our building inspector here is great.  If I pull my own permits, I can use rough cut with no complaints by him as long as it seems of decent quality.  Of course, I heard that he plans on retiring in the next year or so :(

[Toolman]

Our building inspector here is great.  If I pull my own permits, I can use rough cut with no complaints by him as long as it seems of decent quality.  Of course, I heard that he plans on retiring in the next year or so :(

He sounds like "old school" which translates to "common sense". I wish you folks alot of luck with his replacement.

[Qweaver]

The real issue that I have (in our area at least) is that the inspectors are poorly trained.  We just had our septic system put in by guys that have been doing it for over 40 years and they warned me about the bad calls routinely made by the local inspector.  Sure enough, the inspector insisted that our fields had to be located 100' from our above ground rainwater tank.  The tank sets on ground that is 50' from and 15' above the place that I wanted to put the fields and the location that he wanted me to use is set aside for my equipment shed to be built on.  No amount of talking would change his mind so I asked to file for a variance to be considered by the council. He said he'd check out the regulations and talk with the council and call me back.  When the installers came back the next day and started digging the fields in the spot that I had originally selected, I was surprised to learn that 50' separation was the distance in the regs.  But the guy never called me back.  He did come back to check and approve the system before it could be covered.  This guy is probably overworked and expected to cover all kinds of health inspections...but this is what I hate about the system.  His mistake would have caused a complete change to my building plans had I not insisted on a variance hearing.  The sad thing is that this is not a rare incident, it's common that the rules don't fit the situation but they are still blindly applied by the inspectors.

[StorminN]

I've been wondering about this same thing in my area, and have asked around recently about it.

From what I've gathered (ie heard from local sawyers)... in our county, as long as the roof rafters and floor joists are stamped and graded, you're OK. Studs and plates and everything else can be rough-sawn. There are a couple of guys around that will come out and stamp and grade lumber, but it costs$$.

I'll call the county inspector here in the next bit and find out the "official" word...

-Norm.

[SwampDonkey]

When we built a potato packing shed back 20 years ago. All we had to follow was engineered plans from a P Eng. We harvested all our own timber and hauled it to a local mill to be sawed. It was not dressed or kilned or graded by anyone.  8)

[Don P]

When we adopted the I codes our old inspector moved up and we got a new one. Lumber was required to be gradestamped. So I went down to GA for 4 days to get trained at my expense. I took the class hoping he would respect that. My partner at the table became the new auditing grader overseeing graders in a region. He was a nice kid, fresh out of college, a business major. The first house I remember working on was 40 years ago, I grew up in the trade. Our inspector explained he couldn't allow me to grade without a stamp, which I can get, it costs hundreds of dollars per month. So I'm trained but still can't stamp. I helped get our inspectors a 1 day seminar delivered to them at no expense, in fact they got continuing ed points for it. I hoped they would see that I had walked as far towards them as I possibly could and was trying to operate within the spirit of the law. So the fellow that signed my ticket on the left there came up from GA with an instructor. The inspectors got bored and walked out of the seminar at lunch and told me to change the law if I wanted to grade lumber. I took 2 donuts from their tray. So for a few grand I've got a pretty piece of paper. Your mileage will vary wildly  :



About a month after the seminar I watched an entire warehouseful of bootleg stamped lumber move through our county. None of the inspectors ever noticed a thing  :. I've seen more, but they probably never will. The stamp absolves them of liability and that is all the county attorney is worried about.

[Fla._Deadheader]

I checked into this several years ago. Called the SPIB in Florida. Was told I could get certified for a few hundred dollars, but, the SAWMILL would get the stamp. IT had to be in a fixed location, and be in operation, at least 5 years, if I remember correctly.

  I also found out, SPIB is a PRIVATE, NON-PROFIT outfit.

  Liability ???

  They are ALL controlling and NO resources. How does one sue a NON-PROFIT outfit ???  They HAVE NOTHING.   What does this tell you ???

  GO ARKY.  New York State beat this Hoax. Why can't everyone ???

  As I see it, it's NOT the lumber that fails, it's the CONNECTIONS that fail.  : : :

[Don P]

The minute you become trained to actually recognize the difference between an acceptable and an inferior piece of lumber you will have me on board. Thus far I've not seen one sawyer attempt to become legitimately knowledgeable. Who's promoting a hoax? This is ultimately about life safety.

[Fla._Deadheader]

Can't argue safety, Don, BUT, My grandfather, my Uncles and myself, NEVER used stamped lumber, and NOTHING we ever built fell down, OR crashed from using COMMON sense lumber ???

  The stuff at the Box Stores, which MOST people use, is atrocious. BUT, it's stamped as #2. I've seen 3 BIG knots in one area on 2 X 12's, that would NOT hold the board together if anyone stood on it, as it was supported on each end. THAT is Common Sense Lumber.

  Maybe if we shoot all the Lawyers, and make the Inspectors PAY ATTENTION, and use FULL SIZED Lumber, the people could get better--AHHhhh what's the use ???  Noone cares.

[Dan_Shade]

building codes were initially put into place to protect home owners against very shoddy craftsmanship, and worse than shoddy craftsmanship, are the folks that would use things they knew were no good.

not everybody uses that "common sense".

I took a short course hardwood lumber grading.  Lumber grading isn't rocket science, it's applying the rules to a piece of wood.  the stamp end of the softwood business is an unfair business practice, and maybe the way to tackle that problem is through your legislature.  I'm not even sure how to find a class on softwood lumber grading. 

We are in an extreme minority when it comes to this, and the small guys are way behind the curve.

[bck]

I built my house in NC 12 years ago. The building inspectors said that I couldnt use lumber that wasnt grade stamped ( and were real jerks about it ).   My uncle was friends with the top inspector for the state and he sent me a highlighted copy of the code that said if you build the house on the same land the wood was cut from it did not have to be grade stamped. I went back and asked them if it was a county ordanince or a state law that said I couldnt use my wood, they got mad and loud and told me it was a state law. So I gave them the paper , they called the # on the paper and during the rest of my dealings with them they were very nice  ;)

[Ironwood]

Good thread guys. The house is feeling small with the three kids, I may NEED this info soon.


Ironwood

[Fla._Deadheader]

 

building codes were initially put into place to protect home owners against very shoddy craftsmanship, and worse than shoddy craftsmanship, are the folks that would use things they knew were no good.

  JAIL TIME

  This is not a new topic on the Forum. Guys have said NEW Inspectors want AUTHORITY, while the OLDER inspectors try to rein them in.

Guys, I KNOW why the Regulations were passed. Problem is, I have seen MANY Inspectors pull into job sites, sign off on forms, and receive envelopes through the window.  >:( >:(

  I remember when 2 X lumber was still offered in LUMBER yards. Then, I watched it go to 1-5/8" thick. NOW, it's 1½" thick. It's all about BIG MONEY paying off Politicians.

  Someone mentioned being a small minority. I would guess there's MANY more small mills out there than BIG mills. It's NOT the minority, it's the unwillingness of ALL Small mill operators to stand up and GET the POLITICOS to do THEIR job, which is to oversee those that are in the position of Inspecting, to DO THEIR JOB.

  I have NEVER seen where a failed construction of a house or Apartment, involved JAIL TIME and pulling of contractors license.    THAT is what's necessary, but, letting things slide and fines are the way to do business today. 

  Down here, it's getting MORE regulation. No stamping required yet, that I KNOW of. You can build a new house up to 900 SQ.ft, WITHOUT a permit, last I knew. Doesn't NEED Inspecting. OVER 900 sq.ft needs a PERMIT, I'm sure, for tax purposes.

  Doesn't anyone think a 900 sq.ft house can collapse and kill an entire family ??? ???

  Down here, If you leave a piece of the old house standing, you can rebuild to your hearts content, without a permit, I'm pretty sure. Fred will surely let me know otherwise.

  Build a house with unstamped lumber, IF the lumber came from the same place the house was built ???  HOW does that make sense ??? ???  See how the regs are flawed, just the way the Politicos want them ???

  UNUFF ranting.  ;D ;D  I gotta go build some Doors and a Kitchen with UNSTAMPED Lumber.  : : ;D ;D ;D

  NO offence intended DonP. OK ???

[SeeSaw]

Don P brings up some good points about safety.  However, I would guess as FDH pointed out that many structures have been built without stamped lumber that have, and will stand the test of time.  Many examples are still standing that were built prior to having any such governing rules. That in itself should be all the proof that is needed.  I have seen much of this so called lumber myself at the box stores and refuse to use it.  Most of it is junk,  plain and simple.  

I guess I cannot grade and stamp lumber legally like they can.  But, as Arky and many others have pointed out here before, I'm able to tell a good board from a bad board.  It appears as though that's more than I can say for some that inspect and stamp graded lumber that is available to the general public in the box stores. This is truly a sad state of affairs IMHO.  I do believe that this kind of thing will not change until enough sheeple are fed up up and challenge the system.  I personally challenge the local building/ governing body on a regular basis.  I've had much success in doing this.  Just not enough people do it.