Brush piles vs wood chips

[Ron Scott]

There are brush piles and then there are "wildlife brush piles". The brush pile needs to be constructed so that it is of benefit to wildlife.

http://extension.umd.edu/publications/pdfs/FS599.pdf

[sjfarkas]

I would get a smaller mulcher to do it instead of chipping it.  It would probably be cheaper than renting a chipper and a lot easier.  I have done piles with mine and it doesn't take long unless there is wood larger than 8" in diameter.  There is a rule of thumb for fuel height to flame height, I thnk it is 2.5 times so 3 foot tall pile or tree will make flames 7.5 feet.  I would get rid of piles if they are close to any trees.

[indiaxman1]

Clearing off the trails and logging roads....dragging into piles...I do about  the same with tops of fallen or cut trees....cut as many of rounds if small tops for stove....pile rest up...let the nature work

[chevytaHOE5674]

I leave the tops where they lay, and drive over them with the tractor or skidder. After one winter the 20 feet of snow we get knocks all that material to the forest floor where it rots away rather quickly. A brush pile will persist for years, which is good for some wildlife, and bad for aesthetics and other wildlife.

[JUNEBUG 88]

Not sure of this photo link will work: --Photos MUST be in the Forestry Forum gallery!!!!!--.--Photos MUST be in the Forestry Forum gallery!!!!!--.com/albums/ss3/USSSPARKY88/Fire%20Wood%20cutting/woodpiles.jpg[/url]

[JUNEBUG 88]

Sorry I did not know photos had to be in forum.
Wow, I did not expect so many responses, great. We can now weigh the pros and cons of brush piles vs chips. Although I can NOT afford the chipper at any price. My damaged back also does not allow me to bend over and lift sticks let alone carry them off to a distant machine. Many areas we can barely get a lawn tractor between the trees let alone a chipper.
When my wife & I create a pile from stash or tops we either do a single pile or combine tops nearby. We do not drag the branches along the forest floor tearing up the plants such as trilliums,Mayapples,indian pipe,and many other Mi wildflowers. I hate to think what dragging branches from vast areas into one area and then blowing the chips unto the ground would do. I hesitate to even walk through areas with wildflowers.
Our property has both hardwoods and pines and has not seen a wildfire in close proximity at least as long as I can remember 30+years until the idiot neighbor set the fire last month.
I find it more cost effective to gather branches that are not rotten to the ground and still dry and used as pile for animals than chipping that will deteriorate in a couple of years and not be useful for anything under the leaves after 1 season.
Probably the most important con is we are NOT pros and I do not trust my reaction time around this type of equipment. If family is in a hurry to finish job during a rental accidents could happen. One person is very prone to rush through things when others are not going at his same pace even though he is more capable.
Another thing we have piles of firewood seasoning within sight of or near the cabin and close to the wood shed (obvious) Those also could be considered a fire hazard and an eyesore. Maybe we will have to get rid of those.  :D

[SwampDonkey]

Logging can do harm to some sensitive and locally uncommon plants, but mostly they are not uncommon to the whole picture. However, dragging brush by hand I would think has little impact on the survival of wild flowers. It may trample them, but nest spring they will grow back like garden flowers. Purple and painted trilium are not rare and uncommon in these parts,  ladies slippers are uncommon but not rare here. Seems when you find some slippers, especially the white or pink ones there are 100's of them in the area. I did take the effort to save some yellow slippers on my lot before it was logged and replanted them later once the new forest came up. Doing well in their new spot. The biggest detriment to wild flowers is development, turning the soil into lawn and corn fields for instance. In all the reports written by credible scientists they always suggest development of the land is the main cause. Logging is a lot less harmful then out right removal of the forest floor fauna. ;)

Here is a purple trilium that seems to love to have the forest opened up. Shoe for scale. ;D

[John Mc]

Junebug 88-

If you are at all into wildlife, I'd just keep doing what you are doing with the brush piles. If you get ambitious, you may one to consider making a few larger ones at some point (and put some larger logs down fist to create some bigger spaces).

You may also want to think about diversity of habitat. I don't know what your land is like, but if you have a lot of unbroken forest canopy, then the odd little clearing here and there becomes more valuable to various species of wildlife. If you've got some clearings that you like, you may want to monitor them and take some action to keep them open if they start to grow in (like having them brush-hogged occasionally). I created one clearing that I brush hog 1/3 of each year, on a rotating basis, to keep a wide variety of ground cover. If I did nothing, I'd have no clearing in a few years. As I'm maintaining it, I see lots of signs of use by deer (especially browsing the saplings in the winter), grouse, woodcock, and other animals. The grouse especially like to hang out in sapling stands.

John Mc

[Ron Scott]

Yes, diversity is best for wildlife.

[JUNEBUG 88]

We have dense area of pines, swamp mostly hardwoods,and what used to be many decades ago farm land. The farm land is now surrounded by hedgerows of mature Red pines and spruce. The fields were spot planted with various species of pine,spruce,oak tree acorns,berry bushes,etc.
Back in the day, the 70's the DNR pushed Autumn Olive now they want the stuff yanked as it sometimes spreads like a weed. Oddly enough on our property it does not seem to be spreading except by birds or animals. The plots of the plants are still 8-10 plants wide. Deer love the stuff, as do rabbits and grouse.
Nearly all the pines, spruce and Oaks are trees we (5 in family) planted by hand all 10,000+.

I do put larger branches on the bottom of the piles and occasionally build a larger pile. We have seen evidence of animals using them.

Chips do not add anything to the property except if you want to line a path with them which we do have. Okay everybody lets go tidy up the pathway of chips. I do not think so, I have more time valuable things to do.

There will always be dead branches falling so after you spend $250-300/half day chipping a small area of branches, a wind storm comes through and the area looks as if you were never there.
MY wife and I spent 1 weekend cleaning up the hillsides of one area of all downed branches and created several huge piles. The next Winter trees had fallen on our piles and numerous branches had fallen all over. Granted it still looked cleaner than the rest of the areas that we did not do, but it was a blow to our effort.

So using a chainsaw and just picking up the deadfall into piles is much cheaper since windstorms destroy your efforts anyway of a clean forest floor.

[SwampDonkey]

I find mature maple forest is pretty clean to begin with, hardly a shrub unless it's very shade tolerant. I'm even talking about forest land that never had a machine in it as well.

[John Mc]

I've just adopted the attitude that "messy is good". I don't want my forest to look like a park. Unless I'm making a brush pile, clearing a trail, or attempting to make headway against the abundance of buckthorn, anything under about 3" diameter is left where it falls to rot.

John Mc

[SwampDonkey]

In this neck of the woods the only folks paying much attention to having park like timber is the ones with 1 - 4 acres around their house lots. Yes, people will cut up blow downs and broken limbs but that's just part of using the worst first instead of cutting into a 18" hard maple veneer tree for firewood. ;)

[indiaxman1]

Not just the small plot cutters trim those tops....I won't let a storm downed white oak sit and rot....if I can get to it from my logging roads, it is barge roped out, and cut up.....trash trees lay...I haven't cut a live tree for 10 yrs......and lay back many cords yearly.....

[JUNEBUG 88]

IT is a never ending battle against the storm,wind & ice damaged trees that come down. If we can't get the log out right away at least we prop it up off the ground so it does not rot as quick. Brother wants cherry and Maple for woodworking but it usually starts to rot before he gets to it and by then it is no good even for firewood. THe EAB problem has killed nearly every ash on property and we are kept busy with taking out those trees that may be standing yet and great for burning.
THe hardwoods do not have shrubs but when a tree falls usually a clearing opens and brambles grow their making it impossible to walk through. I prefer the wildflower plants anyday. The Autumn Olive bushes are in the fields scattered amongst the scattering of pines and spruces.

We are planning to do a selective cutting of of a few trees for primarily lumber. Those trees that are starting to show signs they are beginning to go or some leaning or multi-stem trees. Then we will have even more work getting the tops cut for firewood.

[Magicman]

IT is a never ending battle against the storm,wind & ice damaged trees that come down......Then we will have even more work getting the tops cut for firewood.

Wind storms take down a few for me each year.  The tree may be hollow, etc.  In this case, there is no log to recover, so the tops are used for firewood.  Sometimes, very high quality trees loose their root hold and are washed into the creek.  Without access to a skidder, they also are generally left to rot.  Just can't get them out.... :'(

[Ron Scott]

Woody debris is also good in waters for fish habitat.

[coppercat]

A lot said about the different benefits. But what is the cost?  If u r thinning, would it be cheaper to make small slash piles with a skid steer (that costs money too) or just drag a chipper around the woods with a small tractor?  I think chipping would be better. If u are piling u still got to do a lot of hand work. U'd have to hand stack small piles. Then u'd consolidate with a skid steer to be burned...what's more work?  Maybe about the same?

[John Mc]

For the most part, I drop the trees, limb them, and leave the slash there. When I get motivated, I'll drag some of it into piles by hand or with my tractor (a toothbar on the bucket helps a lot in shuffling brush around). I don't know why I'd bother chipping it, unless I needed the chips for something... there is almost no fire hazard in my area, so I don't need to deal with the brush from that standpoint. Nutrients will still return to the soil. Maybe not as quickly as if I'd chipped, but I'm not sure that makes a difference.

Of course, I'm doing this on my own land, and for friends, neighbors, etc. I don't need to please some landowner who thinks a forest should look like a park. If I were doing this commercially, I'm sure my methods would be different - both for efficiency's sake, and to give the customer what they want.

John Mc

[fuzzybear]

   I pile limbs up into piles with openings around the base then set snares.  Rabbit stew any one??!! ;D :D

[woodtroll]

Coppercat
It's about fuel loading in the western states. Chipping still leaves a significant fuel load. It may be low and packed close to the soil but it is there. Slash piles can be burned in the winter if some one will monitor and maintain them.
Chipping in the woods is done for fuel treatments and is still alot of work. It will cost around $1000 - $2000 an acre.

[sjfarkas]

Mulching/mastication/grinding can be done for $350-$800/ acre.  it can be done with scattered limbs or piles can be ground up.  I'd bet that if it's not too steep(over 30%) and the material isn't over 4 inches I could knock an acre out for less than $400 with my bobcat.  I think grinding would be the cheapest and least amount of time invlolved.