Sawmill Build - Chain Slabber & 90deg Circle on the same tracks

[pitotshock]

Ok guys, as I promised in my intro message over in the general discussion board I am going to lay out the sawmill build for you guys to have a look at.

My logic followed this sort of thinking

• I need to cut a bunch of wood;
• why don't I build myself a sawmill;
• makes sense to start with a simple bandmill;
• Oh, I have 2 free Briggs engines (16 & 17hp), but they are vertical shaft, not horizontal shaft;
• OK, I'll build a 4 stroke powered chainsaw mill;
• but i need a bunch of dimensional lumber and that chainsaw is going to be really slow;
• So why don't I build a 90 degree, 2 blade, circular saw on the same set of tracks;

and there we have it, this is where I am going. Use the chainsaw head to cut posts, beams and cants, or use the circular to cut dimensional lumber up to 3x7


My Internet research for inspiration
FF member Hilltop366

Youtube videos
www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pmkm1WGTYmI
www.youtube.com/watch?v=LbhG_u5UtgQ

Photo
https://forestryforum.com/gallery/displayimage.php?album=2262&pos=16

FF member Stevensam's mill
https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/15908/2007-06-21%20007.JPG

DIYBANDMILL member ttoberer first mill
http://www.diybandmill.com/index.php?option=com_gallery2&Itemid=13&g2_itemId=3235


Lucas mill dedicated slabber
http://www.baileysonline.com/itemdetail.asp?item=DS8+16B&catID=195



Phase 1 Chainsaw mill
Fairly simple design with a Harvester bar and chain from Bailey's Online, a 16hp Briggs 4 stroke on top; a frame to hold it all together and away you go. I am currently in the middle of this build and hope to have it completed fairly shortly. Here are some pics

Basic Layout


Construction (with engine shown)


Construction (without engine)


Track bearings details

[pitotshock]

Ok, this phase is still in design and will wait until the chainsaw head and tracks are done before construction begins.

Inspirational link
http://www.diybandmill.com/index.php?option=com_gallery2&Itemid=13&g2_itemId=5564

Basically this is a 17hp 4 stroke Briggs twin vertical shaft powered, 2 blade, 90 degree circular saw similar to the Mobile Dimension saw, but on tracks like the bandmills. The two blades are going to be home made 18" dia 5 tooth brazed carbide running horizontally and a 10" dia 4 tooth brazed carbide running vertically and behind the main blade. The engine will be directly coupled to the large blade by vbelts and the secondary blade will be powered by a 90 degree twist belt off of the main blade shaft, like the MD. If I had a horizontal shaft engine, I would change the orientation, but I am working with the stuff I got.

Brainstorming Sketches


Yes you read correctly, I am going to make the blades myself.

Going to start with, reconditioning saw plate from used diamond blade concrete saws. I approached a few commercial concrete sawyers and they said they would give me for free as many blades as I wanted up to 5' in diameter as they just toss them into the trash after the diamonds wear out. (Side note, the 5' diamond blade is worth $12,000 each!)

Raw blades (did I mention FREE)




So, I am going to take a 24" blade and cut it down to an 18 (plate thickness is 0.131") and a 14" and cut it down to a 10" (plate thickness is 0.087"). The carbides are going to be CWG 0.230" wide grade C2 pretinned carbides from www.carbideprocessors.com at a cost of less than $20 for 50 tips. Going to build a brazing jig similar to the ones used on the demo videos on Youtube by CarbideProcessors

Machining Operations on the mill with a rotary table


Finished Tip Geometry




OK, wow. that is all for now...

James

[bandmiller2]

James your a clever lad well on your way, most of us will just get in your way.Very good idea about recycling concrete saws,you biggest problem will be machining the pockets for the carbide bits,mayby mr. Bridgeport can help.Keep us posted and be persistant.Frank C.

[James P.]

welcome to the forum Pitotshock

[Firebass]

Great job  Looks like a fun project.  Don't forget to build yourself a peavey too.  I just burned out some plate for the hook and a pined it to a piece of 1 1/4" pipe then welded a hook on the end to grab with.  Works great and is practicly free to build.  I made a couple extra for when I have helpers around.

Firebass
   

[fishpharmer]

Pitotshock, your way ahead of me.  You think you could help me out sometime ;) ;) ;D 8) 8)

I am impressed to say the least. 

[Hilltop366]

Hi Pilotshock and welcome.

Looks like you got a good start.

I think that the two belts would work better than one, one seems to be maxed out at 16 hp, might I also suggest to use spring tensioners on the slack side of the belt, this should work better than having one belt humming tight so it won't slip (tends to overload the bearings).

The two tracks should work better than my mono rail for ease of pushing the saw and eaiser to build. Wish I had done that with mine but my cheapness got the best of me that time  :

Cheers

[pitotshock]

Thanks for all the comments guys!  Don't think I came to this design all by myself. I poured over every discussion posted in this forum over the last few years to get any comment that might be applicable and I used them. So I really see this design as a FF collaboration.

Thanks for the tips HillTop366, I have thought long and hard about double sheaves and plan on using them in the circle mill, but they are pricey new.  If you look at the design specifications of a B series vbelt, this many hp is too high for one. Besides I have the exact same engine and electric clutch you do and planned on using the clutch on the chainsaw mill (was yours out of a Ford YT16 lawn tractor too???) Cool to have the chain engaged and disengaged with the flip of a switch. I do have an idler pulley and spring that was planned for the slack side of the belt to keep it tensioned.

[DanG]

PS, I'm really impressed by your drawings and design, but I do have some misgivings about the vertical shaft engine.  I realize that you already have it and you're "cheap ass" :D , but there are a couple of reasons that say to bite the bullet and get a horizontal shaft motor for the twin blade.  First, it is tough to find a suitable vertical shaft engine to pull two ¼" kerf blades through ten inches of wood. (7x3)   Secondly, you could go with a much larger main blade if you orient that blade vertically, due to the gravitational effect on the rim of the blade.  I'm sure a good Saw-Doc could hammer your blade to handle it, but that is just another expense that you wouldn't need.

That being said, I've had a fascination with another engine option for some time now.  Back in the '70s, I had a very small part in building a Scorpion helicopter kit.  It was powered by a 115hp Evinrude outboard motor powerhead.  At the time, that was the lightest powerplant available in that size range, even with the attendant radiator and water tank.

But HEY, you're the Engineer and I'm just an old dink with aspirations that extend beyond my ability and energy.  I wish you the best with your project and look forward to observing your progress.  If you prove me wrong, I'll be shickled titless! ;)

[TJB]

Howdy, thats a pretty neat setup. How does the lift work? Could you post some pics of that? Thanks TJ

[pitotshock]

How does the lift work? Could you post some pics of that?

It's not all in place yet as I am waiting for the ACME rod to arrive in the mail. But basically, (or me just over complicating a simple thing) this uses 4 split nylon blocks to slide on 4 round bars with 4 ACME screws connected together by roller chain provide the up/down force.

When it is together I will be sure to post a pic.

However, when I do the second, circular head, I will be using small roller bearing instead of the linear bearing blocks. Just too much work for not much gain.

[TJB]

pitotshock
The chainsaw part of the mill is what I'm interested in.  I built a pro cut style mill and it works fine but then I saw Hilltop366's video on youtube and decided I like that design even better, so I have been thinking about building a new mill like the one you are working on.  I have a 14hp Kohler vertical shaft engine with a electric clutch off a JD riding mower and was thinking since the 066 on my mill now has something like 7.1 hp, the Kohler will double the hp and be enough for what I want. What I am trying to decide is if I want to put 4 acme rods on the corners to lift it with or if I wanted to use rods like yours to hold it straight and use a boat winch to lift from above. I also like the thought of flipping a switch to engage/disengage the chain. I would really like to see pics from you and Hilltop of the connecting shaft setup.  Keep the pics coming and thanks!!!
TJ 

[Hilltop366]

 Good day Pitotshock (you might have to explain the name to me I'm not getting it)

The electric clutch is real handy the same switch turns on the bar oil as well, my engine came out of a Lawnboy 16, I have another so when I found another with a blown transaxel I bought it so I would'nt have to take the engine out of the lawn tractor in the fall and return it in the spring, The trans axel's are kind of weak on those tractors but the engine goes on and on, the lawn tractor is 20 years old and mowes 3 or 4 acres, I have worn the front wheels and steering out once and the transaxel out 3 times, but the motor does't even use oil yet!

I would take DanG advise on the sawblade or at least put the large one vert and small one horz, someone might be able to tell you the required gas engine hp per 1" of cut , then all you got to do is change your brain to see the log cut from the side instead of the top :D.

And good day TJB as well,

The 4 cycle hp and 2 cycle hp ratings can not be compared directly, the 14hp hp Kohler won't have 2x the power of the 066 but it will be more, (can't remember the ratio off the top of my head). I used a worm gear winch for raise and lower, it stops when you stop turning it up or down and does not have a ratchet to mess with, I also put a lock on the frame to keep it from creeping down when cutting.

Try and get some pictures later, bit of a snow storm right now.

Cheers

[Ianab]

someone might be able to tell you the required gas engine hp per 1" of cut

With most circle blade setups you plan on having 2 or 3 HP per tooth. So you can get away with 8hp driving 4 cutters on a swingmill size saw, or 100hp driving 50 cutters on a full size circle miil. The action of the cutters is the same in both. More power doesn't help as you run into other problems with the gullet filling with chips and the blade overheating.

A shallow cut just means you can feed a bit faster.

So the plan of using 16hp to run 2 x 4 tooth saws is in the right ballpark. It's going to load up in a full depth cut, but as the edger is probably only going to be 1 or 2" deep there should be enough power for the main saw.

Ian

[pitotshock]

Hilltop366,

Here is a link for you with the explanation of where Pitotshock came from.
https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,41079.msg592839.html#msg592839

As for the lawn tractor, the donor that gave up the 16hp for me had a transaxle that was cracked in half. Must have been the same thing as yours with a different paint job.

Ianab, thanks for the info on hp/tooth. Sounds like the engine is just about the minimum size to start out with. 

Now only if I had a horizontal shaft output to put that big blade vertical instead of horizontal. Thought maybe a snowmobile engine would work, but I hate the idea of running a big 2 stroke like that. I had toyed with the idea of using a 3 cylinder Suzuki Swift engine w/ carburetor, but those air cooled Briggs are so self contained they make it easy. Maybe I will try and find a free Suzuki engine somewhere... (48 hp at 5100 rpm with a torque of 57 ft-lb) Anybody have any other ideas for a small engine?

[TJB]

I was milling some cherry today and my old 066 quit on me. I'll have to take it by the shop next week and find out what happened. If it's a goner then I will be building this new sawhead sooner than I thought.

[Hilltop366]

Hi TJB
I used a trailer spindle and had a key way put on it for the driven pulley and also had the end turned down a key way for the harvester sprocket and the center driled and tapped for a bolt to hold the sprocket on the shaft, I also got some round shims made to have some adjustment for the sprocket height.

I would not use the trailer spindle and off set engine again instead, go with a two track setup with the engine more centered and a longer shaft with pillow block bearings or a tube turned to take sealed bearings with bolt ears to fasten to frame, more like what Pitotshock is making. The drive pulley(engine) is aprox 5" , the driven is 4 1/4" , the sprocket is 2 1/4" with .404 pitch chain.
If you have a little less power you would have to reduce the chain speed a bit.

[firecord]

Check this one out.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRzhdnDqTNQ&feature=related

and this one
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRtjbOA0Ho0&feature=related

[TJB]

Hilltop I had planned on going with the 2 track setup.  I already have the mill built, I will just have to change the carriage to take the engine/bar setup instead of the chainsaw I'm using now.  If I can make the carriage I have now work it would be great but I can always build another if it doesnt. Here's a pic of my mill

[pitotshock]

Firecord, thanks for those great youtube links, I haven't seen those ones before. This is quite the machine, with all of the hydraulic controls.  :P

[TJB]

firecord
I agree with pitotshock, those are some really cool videos! First time I have seen a electric and hydraulic setup together.
TJ

[Firebass]

someone might be able to tell you the required gas engine hp per 1" of cut

With most circle blade setups you plan on having 2 or 3 HP per tooth. So you can get away with 8hp driving 4 cutters on a swingmill size saw, or 100hp driving 50 cutters on a full size circle miil. The action of the cutters is the same in both. More power doesn't help as you run into other problems with the gullet filling with chips and the blade overheating.

A shallow cut just means you can feed a bit faster.

So the plan of using 16hp to run 2 x 4 tooth saws is in the right ballpark. It's going to load up in a full depth cut, but as the edger is probably only going to be 1 or 2" deep there should be enough power for the main saw.

Ian

Excelent Post Ian!  This is why I hang out here.    I always found it interesting that your mill works well with a 10HP(smaller) engine.  This explains why.

Firebass

[pitotshock]

Ok, the weekend was a good push forward. Got the Log dogs done, welded up the frame and finished welding the saw cart.

The bed is 19.5' long


Detailed Pics of the log dog setup










And if you need extensions to grab something a little higher, they can be inserted into the tubes like so

[DanG]

That's looking great, Pitot!  I like those vertical extensions on the clamps.  Frequently, you run across a log with rotten sapwood that doesn't want to clamp up very well.  That ought to take care of that little problem! 8) 8)

[pitotshock]

OK, here is some more brainstorming on the suzuki swift powered dimensional saw. The 3cyl engine is about 22.5" tall 18" long and 16" wide.

What do you think of this kind of layout.