How do I choose which to cull?

[Dave_Fullmer]

I have 33 A of timber consisting of red oak, pin oak, sweet gum, yellow poplar, some cedar, a few beech and a fair amount of hickory.  My wife wants me to thin out some down hill from the house so she can see into the woods.

About three years ago, the county extension forestry people set up somewhat of a plan to start managing the trees and offered some government help.  I am not so interested in letting the government get a foothold on telling me what I can or can not do, but I have been convinced that I should cull some of the trees, plant a 12 A clear field to trees and let the best and more profitable trees grow to market size.

I have been looking into marketing my culls.  Some of the gum would make crossties, some of the hickory would make handle blanks, and a lot of the culls would make pallet material, of which I can sell just 8 miles away.

My question is how do I choose which trees I should cull.  Should I see if I can get the forestry guy to come back and cruise the woods with me and mark them, or should I just try to use my best judgement?  I hate start cutting and then find out that what I cut, I should have left standing.

[Tobacco Plug]

Dave,
Obviously you would want to remove any diseased, poorly formed, damaged, or less desireable species trees.  I would suggest that you have the county forest ranger (or whatever you call them in your area) come out and give you some advice on how heavily the thin out your timber.  He can also give you some advice on planting the 12 acre field.  There is cost share money available in the new farm bill for this.

[Ron Scott]

Determine the appropriate silviculture (vegetative management) prescription for your property to meet your intigrated resource objectives.

Then "remove the worst first". The  "cull" trees will be those of "merchantable" size but have no market value because of defect.

Of course some of the culls may have other resource values such as for wildlife den, cavity, snag, or nest trees, aesthetics, etc. as predetermined by your management objectives for the property.

As previously stated, it is always best to seek ther advice of a professional forester if you have any question.

[Ron Wenrich]

Here's one I wrote over in the Knowledge Base on crop tree selection.

"Here is some guidelines for crop trees.
Crop trees should have a crown width of 1/3 of the tree height. As a tree grows, the crown will have to expand. This will insure good growth and a healthy tree.

Crop trees should have a crown height of 1/3 of the tree height. Trees with insufficient crown height are usually trees in the understory. To increase the height, a tree can be released by removing the overstory. Too often these trees are surpressed and may not react well to release.

Prune no more than 1/3 of the live branches from a tree. Too much pruning will put the tree under stress. It is best to prune no more than the 1st 17 foot of a tree."

Quite often the best place to start is with a timber inventory.  This will tell you what you have, and give you a guideline of what you want to get rid of.  There is an extensive section over in the Knowledge Base on point sampling.

Pin oak and sweet gum are good for ties, if there isn't any shake.  It would take a tree that is 14" in dbh to consider making ties.  Pin oak has very limited value in lumber.  

Hickory markets have vastly improved in the past 5 years.  These trees used to go for pallets, but now are being sawn for grade lumber.  Cabinets and flooring are also excellent uses for hickory and often pay more than handle blanks.  I've also seen hickory sold as veneer.  In most cases, you will need at least 18" dbh trees to get veneer.  I wouldn't discount their value too quickly, if they are of good quality.

Pick your crop trees, then start to cull.

[Dave_Fullmer]

Ron, would you say that any of my gum trees should be cut?
There really isn't much market except for ties, is there?

Also, some of my yellow poplar are pretty good sized, some as much as 18 inches.  Should I save these for building use for myself?  These aren't acceptable for ties, are they?

The other question I wonder about is what should I plant in the 12 A that is cleared?  I had thought of SYP, but I don't know if West TN has the right climate.  Also I had thought of Loblolly pine but it seems to me that Loblolly grows too quick and isn't the best choice for lumber crops.

Thanks for the good info,
Dave

[Ron Wenrich]

There is a gum market, but it don't believe it is too strong.  Ties are the best bet, as far as I know.

As for yellow poplar, there is a pretty good market.  Can't use them for ties, but we sell veneer (depends on how much white wood vs green), and we also sell grade lumber.  They grow nice and straight and can grow in a pretty dense stand as opposed to red oak.  You can look at an upper diameter of about 26-30".

As for planting, I'd get ahold of your county extension agent or your local state forester for advice.  I'm too far north for SYP.  There's also pawlonia for a cash crop.

[Dave_Fullmer]

Thanks, Ron.

Good information.  One more question (I almost said last, but realized I would probably have more).

Can you recommend a good book on how to recognize species by bark as well as leaf?  Three years ago when the county guy walked through the woods with me, he told me that he hadn't seen as many species in one woods in a long time.  He also said I should be carrying a hachet with me so I could chop he vines that were growing on the trees.

I bought this 45 A in 1982 when I moved from Mich.  I was so busy with work that I did nothing except cut a few trees for building purposes.  About 5 years ago, I had my property appraised for mortgage purposes and the appraiser made a statement that made me realize I had done nothing to manage the value of the timber.  I was working such long hours as a maintenance man in a lawn mower factory that I really had no time to do anything though.  Since then I have retired and now I want to set up a bandmill operation.  I have also purchased a used resaw and just now am in the process of building a shed to work in.

I really don't expect to plant trees and realize anything from them except watching them grow.  My kids will have to have them harvested when they are ready.  I just want to be a good steward of what God has given me.  

By the way, when the county guy walked through the woods, he went from a grove of young trees across a clearing into the main woods, mentioned because of the gully washes (grown over) that at one time the whole farm had been cleared and farmed.  He walked up to a red oak and got out his core sampler to check the age.  He asked me how old I thought the tree was.  I looked at the size, did some mental calculations on how long I had owned the property, and said 75 years.  When he counted the rings, he told me that it was about 80 years old.  

I'll go over to the knowledge base and look up the stuff you mentioned.

Thanks again.  Sorry I got so wordy
Dave

[Ron Wenrich]

There are several different tree id books out there.  I use Harlow and Harrar book on Dendrology, which I got in college.  Its pretty pricey.  Mine's still in black & white.   :D

There are several over at Amazon.  If you have a Borders that is close, it might pay to browse their racks.  And, if all else fails, you can try the library.  

You might want to see if there is a landowner's assn. in your area.  That is a good place to get information.

[Tobacco Plug]

I use the Audubon Field Guide to Trees (Eastern Region).  It has color plates of leaves and bark, along with black and white drawings and written descriptions.  This was what I used in Dendrology classes in college.

[Dave_Fullmer]

Ron,
I keep bothering you with questions.  I went over to the knowledge base and looked at all the inventory methods.  One of the subjects that kept coming up and you mentioned also, is overstory and understudy.  My forestry man here in the county talked about weed trees shadowing the crop trees.  Is that overstory?  Is under story the branches on the tree itself?  

Thanks,.
Dave

[Ron Wenrich]

The questions aren't bothersome, so don't feel bad about asking them.  I'm sure there are others that have the same questions.

The overstory consists of trees that make up the canopy.  These are the dominant and co-dominant trees.  When the canopy becomes closed, this is where you have to thin in order to get growth.  You can only achieve tree growth through crown expansion.

The understory consists of trees growing under the canopy.  Usually these are trees that are more tolerant of shade, such as hemlock, beech and maple.  They can also be trees that just didn't make it to the canopy due to crowding.  You can also have shrubs and small trees like ironwood and dogwood in the understory.  Most of these will never become crop trees.  But, they do enter into stocking levels since they take nutrients and moisture from other trees.

Trees in the understory that are the same species as the overstory are usually the same age, just surpressed.  Most trees will respond to release, but the older the tree, the slower the response.  

I've seen way to many "thinning" operations that will remove the overstory and allow the junk in the understory to take over.  Its one of the reasons that the leading species in my state is now red maple, instead of red oak.  Diameter limit cutting will often yield the same results.  Diameter limit cuts can be successful in a 2 aged forest, but that doesn't happen that often.

If you are looking to cull trees, understory trees are good candidates.  They make lots of firewood.  Your more dominant trees are usually good candidates for crop trees.  

If you are looking to make a final harvest, then you would first make some sort of regeneration cut - either shelterwood or seed tree.  Shelterwood removes the understory and provides enough light for the overstory species to seed in.  After good regeneration, the overstory is removed.  I don't think you're at this point.

Over in Germany, I've seen where they were managing beech and white oak in the overstory, using about 125 yr rotations.  In the understory, they were managing ironwood for fuelwood and using 20 yr rotations.  Interesting concept, but rarely used in the US.

[Dave_Fullmer]

Boy, there is lots to learn.  Kind of scary, too.  Once you use the chain saw, it's too late to go back.  I like what some one on one of the other posts said about leaving the chain saw in the shop and spend lots of time walking through the woods.

When I bought the property in '82, I loved the idea that I now owned a significant piece of woods.  I have always liked trees.  There is a 650 A plot that borders my property and about 10 years ago, they clear cut it, burned the slashings, and replanted to (I think) loblolly.  My property sits about a mile off the main highway and often when I drove on the highway, I would wonder just where my trees were.  Well, when they clear , I could see the pole barn that sat on their property and I could pinpoint exactly my trees.  The sky line of the trees in that area now shows with a distinct higher tree line on my property that the properties surrounding.  Now everytime I drive the highway, and look at the tree line I get a prideful feeling that my trees are bigger than the others.  

I want to keep it that way.

Thanks again for the info.  I think I'll take a bunch more walks through the woods.  I guess it's time I enjoyed the woods anyway.

Dave

[L. Wakefield]

   The yellow popple you are talking about, is that Liriodendron tulipifera?  lw

[Dave_Fullmer]

I think so.  At least it is also called tulip poplar.  It has the large leaf that is shaped a little like the profile of the tulip flower.

[Phorester]

The gov't. foresters can't tell you what you have to do, they can only advise. It's still your property and your decisions.  Here in VA we will mark an acre or so free as a demo area for landowners.  You might see if that's available from your state or extension forester.  That's the best way to get an idea of what to take and what to leave.  Every forest ownership is different.  What's good for yours might not be good for your neighbors because of different soils, different species, different ages, different past management (or mismanagement). Best to have a professional forester in your woods.

[Dave_Fullmer]

I went over to the county office of the local forester yesterday.  We talked a little about the stewardship plan he wrote for me in 1998.  (I didn't realize it was that old).  We also set up a date for tomorrow morning to walk through my woods.  

I think he is going to help me quite a bit on identifying what I have, etc.  I am going to go slow on cutting stuff.  Just the obvious deformed, dead, etc.for now.  

Thanks for all the good info from everyone.

Dave

[Dave_Fullmer]

Well, the forester came by yesterday morning.  We walked through part of the woods and he showed me a lot.  I didn't realize how many red oak I had.  Most are only in the 14 to 15 dbh range, a few in the 18 dbh range.  Lots of gum up to 18 in.  He showed me enough that I can satisfy the urge to use the chainsaw for most of the winter.  When I get the mill shed built and the mill set up, I don't think the wife will have to complain about me being underfoot.

[Tobacco Plug]

Sounds like you are on your way.  Be sure to post your progress.  I would particularly like to know what you do with the 12 acre field.

[Dave_Fullmer]

Actually, the 12 Acres includes the building site and a 3 Acre field that I want to keep open.  Mr. Tines (the forester) recommends that I plant the open field to Ladino clover which he says will attract the grasshoppers which in turn will attract the wild turkeys.

The remaining 6 acres will probably be planted to Loblolly (SYP).  I have an application to fill out for some government help on the cost of planting.  First I need to clear out a couple of small areas of some standing trees so that I can plant this area and have all same age trees.

Will keep you posted

Dave

[Tobacco Plug]

Sounds good.  That clover should attract the bambis too.