Add on to house or buy land with trees??

[cliffreaves]

Hello everyone. It's been a long time since posted, I've just been reading in the background, soaking in wisdom from everyone else's posts. So, I've wanted a bandsaw mill for over 10 years now but have put it on the back burner for various reasons. Finally i received a promotion so I'm in a situation where I can afford a hydraulic mill (HD36) without sacrificing anything from my families needs. (Other than time).  My wife is 110% on board.  She actually wants to buy a plot of land with trees instead of adding on to our house. (She's wanted to add on for a couple years now). I will only be a weekend warrior to start out.  Her parents have a farm with countless huge white oaks, poplar, and hickory mostly.   They have always said that I'm welcome to any trees, but her dad seems pretty unenthusiastic about me cutting more than a couple now lol.  The big question is, do I add on to the house (we wouldbe finishingout the garage which would add a little 600 sqft and putting a carport around back), or buy land to mill on?  I've never bought land.  What are some things to look for and to stay away from?

[DDW_OR]

Land:
access - right-of-way, how do you get to the land, and is it legal
water - water rights, can you use the water
Mineral - do you own it or can someone come onto it and strip mine?
Timber - do you own the trees, it has happened.

also, is the property boundary surveyed so you know what is not yours.

if the land has no water then have a Water Witch find where to drill a well.
good to have for Forest Fires and increases land value

My Dad and I witched ours, 85 foot, SOFT water, 15gpm, and tastes good even when warm
we used both copper and "metal" rods bent into an L  . both worked just as good.

[Florida boy]

Where I live you want to go look at the prospective property after a 3" or more of rain . What looks dry can be 6" under in a day then bleed off in another day sometimes.

[47sawdust]

I would add on to the house.The other option has too many unknowns and possible friction with FIL.
I think the stress level is much less as well.
Good luck to you and your family.The mill you have chosen is a good one.

[cliffreaves]

I never would have thought of insuring i have the rights to the trees and minerals on land I bought. That sounds kinda crazy! so thanks for the heads up!

[Southside]

A part of it depends on how involved in your land you want to be.  I like owning land and that is where I invest my money.  Not so much as an investment where I expect it to appreciate in any significant value, more of a security where I know I can manage the land, harvest a return from it - be that timber, grazing, dirt, or recreation, and know that the investment has not been depreciated so it still holds the original value that I paid for it.  To me it's sort of like the stock market without the inherent risk that someone else is doing the management of whatever company stock one would buy so you put your faith in them.  With land management the choices are yours.  A guy can use the same principals on one acre as 10,000 acres, it comes down to how intensively you want to manage the resource.  Is your map grid laid out on the square foot or the section is what it boils down to.  

Your land management can pay for the house addition in time, it can even let you build a much bigger one, but the house addition will never pay for the land is how I look at it.  It is critical to have a spouse that sees it the same way for this to work though. 

[mredden]

Don't just look at trees, slope, drainage and boundaries though those are important. Look at the dirt!.

Try to find out about prior uses.

Might be clear now, but may have had a filing station there in the past. Was it a farm dumpsite 30 years ago? Trees can hide old industrial barrels from the 1970s before the clean air and clean water acts were enacted.

Things to look for? Wildlife. This includes bugs and worms. Never buy dirt that has no life in it. There's usually a reason.

Get the county agent from USDA to look at the land. Tell you what grows well on the soil, elevation, micro-climate, etc. No reason not to plant  apple trees, pear trees or whatever other fruit and/or nut trees/bushes the land will support around the edges even if you are going to turn the center into a quasi-industrial milling site

[mredden]

Land:
access - right-of-way, how do you get to the land, and is it legal
water - water rights, can you use the water
Mineral - do you own it or can someone come onto it and strip mine?
Timber - do you own the trees, it has happened.

also, is the property boundary surveyed so you know what is not yours. . . .

I knew a guy who had agate on his land in South Carolina. He sold the mineral rights to some guys who looked interested in agate. The contract said that he would get 25% of the mining profits.  Well, they went in and logged the 60 year old long leaf. Turns out trees are minerals in South Carolina. Yjey never even looked for an agate.

[DDW_OR]

I knew a guy who had agate on his land in South Carolina. He sold the mineral rights to some guys who looked interested in agate. The contract said that he would get 25% of the mining profits.  Well, they went in and logged the 60 year old long leaf. Turns out trees are minerals in South Carolina. Yjey never even looked for an agate.

Yep, Land laws are weird. never thought of trees as minerals.

[jb616]

Land:
access - right-of-way, how do you get to the land, and is it legal
water - water rights, can you use the water
Mineral - do you own it or can someone come onto it and strip mine?
Timber - do you own the trees, it has happened.

also, is the property boundary surveyed so you know what is not yours.

if the land has no water then have a Water Witch find where to drill a well.
good to have for Forest Fires and increases land value

My Dad and I witched ours, 85 foot, SOFT water, 15gpm, and tastes good even when warm
we used both copper and "metal" rods bent into an L  . both worked just as good.

I am looking for information on mineral rights in Michigan. I am currently pending on a 40 acre parcel, but no one can seem to tell me who has the mineral rights. There was an oil lease for exploration in the early '80s but that has expired. Any solid information would be appreciated. 

[DDW_OR]

did you get a title report?
County or State "should" know about mineral rights.

[Woodpecker52]

Around Nashville, Id look at land with house site and resale value, life goals might change.   As far a lusting after a sawmill, everyone one on this forum has and does.  If your wife is on board, go far it when you can, 8) she might change her mind! :-\  Most mills will hold their value so you can justify it as an investment    As far as in laws, sometimes they say things before thinking :-[

[cliffreaves]

We would be looking south of Nashville for land.  I'm definitely glad I asked y'all before getting too far into the search.  I'll get the mill for sure and take down a few trees around for practice. How many acres should I look for?  I definitely plan on replanting trees as they are cut.  I've seen a few places listed at about 2-3000 per acre. I believe I'll be leaning toward adding square footage to our house.  If my wife is certain she'd rather have land after a couple months, then I'll let her talk me into it lol. 

[woodyone.john]

Your wife is smart.Listen to her.

[Southside]

I've seen a few places listed at about 2-3000 per acre

If there is good timber on that land you can make a VERY good profit on value added lumber coming off of it and still leave plenty of tree cover.  

[longtime lurker]

When looking at land forget the trees. Reason why is this: yeah we all know you can make money out of sawing logs, or sending them for veneer etc. But unless there is  about double the value of the land there in trees then they are just a bonus.

Standing trees do not necessarily make logs once they are cut.
Standing trees cost money to harvest, and then to saw if you choose to saw them.
Standing trees can only be cut down once.
The long and the short of it is that the money in this business is always in the real estate not the lumber, and unless the underlying ground adds up as a deal then its not a good deal:

It's either got to be land that you wish to buy and hold regardless of the trees because you expect the value of the land to increase faster than bank interest
or
land that you can remove the trees from then onsell and make a profit on the real estate because its now developed
or
a purchase of land the costs of which you can use to offset income for tax purposes.
or
a mix of all of the above.

There are rarely exceptions to this. If all you want is trees you can go buy them without having to purchase the ground.

[Southside]

It may be a different economic picture over your way, but in these parts rural land value is in what it can produce, be that agriculture products or forest products, the appreciation in value will rarely be more than inflation unless it happens to be near a growing population center and then that really isn't $2,000 rural land to begin with. 

If we are talking selling commodity stumpage then I agree with your view, but value added lumber, completely different ballgame for the small operator. 

[GAB]

Before purchasing I would make sure the land perks for septic for at least one residence.
Is there zoning in that local?
If so you need to familiarize yourself with it and the associated land use regulations.
Trees are nice but one good earthquake, or hurricane, or other act of God and they could be history.
I wish you the best and if you need more assistance come-on back.
Gerald

[cliffreaves]

Well there's certainly a lot to think on.  You guys always come through with the best insights.  I really appreciate it!  Perhaps I'll leave the door open for a bit to see what opportunities may come.  I think there are probably enough trees around me that people are wanting to get rid of that it will keep me busy for the foreseeable future. However, if there's a truly great land deal to be had, I think I should consider it.