O/T - Anyone have experience dealing with EPA regs and underground gas tanks?

[livemusic]

There is a nice lot in my small town that I would buy at the right price. But it used to be a gas station. We used to call them filling stations, lol. Actually, pumps are still there. I recall that, oh, maybe 30 years ago, the man who owned the station my whole life up to that point was told by the EPA that he was going to have to do some remediation work with the underground tanks and it was a very large sum of money. In lieu of that, he shut it down and retired. After that, the building was torn down and a self-serve station was installed by another man, the type of station that fleets use. I do not know if he did anything to the old tanks or used them or what. His self-serve pumps are still there. All that is there are the pumps, covered by an awning that the new guy erected. That was, oh, 20 years ago. But those pumps haven't been used in, say, ten years best to my knowledge. It's not dilapidated, it's in good shape. The lot is actually completely covered by asphalt, with the pumps in the middle.

So, I am curious if the regs have relaxed or is it still prohibitively expensive to do whatever needs to be done to use the site. I would not have a service station there, it would be another type of business. Anyone know anything on this?

I know a fellow who bought a lot nearby to this that also used to have pumps on it and it has underground tanks. He is building a restaurant. I was told that the EPA or state or whoever it is that governs this said that they "would work with him" to help him do what is needed to take care of those underground tanks. This guy isn't loaded, he can't afford a big amount of money, so, I am wondering if these days, the fix is not so expensive.

I will talk to both of these owners eventually but wanted to know if anyone has any knowledge about this. I did some google research on EPA / underground tank regs and it is clear as mud.

Point being that if I were to make a deal with the owner for the retail value of the real estate, I would not want to be faced with a huge amount of additional money to fix the tanks, if need be.

[sawguy21]

I don't know your regulations but if they are anything like ours  I would say forget about it and walk away. If the soil samples show ANY sign of contamination it would have to be removed, cleaned and replaced but remediation SHOULD be the vendors responsibility. Of course he will try to pass the cost on to a potential buyer. A local Shell station site went through that, another dealer moved on to the site but the tanks are now above ground.

[peakbagger]

I would concur. Its highly likely that there is contamination. Usually the law allows the state to go after anyone in the chain of title to collect for cleanup. Frequently the last owner went out of business and the local jurisdiction may have seized it for property taxes. Other jurisdictions are smart enough not to seize it due the contamination and its in legal limbo.They may even sell it with a quit claim but anyone buying it is now in the chain of title. Some states charge a tax on things like petroleum to go into a fund to mitigate these sites but normally those funds try to go after anyone with deep pockets. Oil companies on occasion even though they may be long gone may end up paying for some or all of it. If lucky its only soil contamination and the usual approach is dig it out, send the contaminated soil to permitted landfill or possible a kiln and be done with it. If on the other hand it got into the ground water or water table then its usually dig it out and then install collection wells around the site and pump and treat the ground water until testing shows the concentrations have dropped enough (could be 5 to 20 years). Someone has to pay to run this system. Insurance companies will rarely insure land with prior use unless there is testing.

So unless the state has a fund for assisting stay away from it.

[florida]

I had a bank offer me an old gas station building and lot for $100.00 once. They were honest about their only objective being to get out of the $500,000 liability of cleaning the site up.  We had a really nice Raceway close about a mile up the road because they wouldn't buy the property due to the liability of past pollution by previous stations at that site.
Run! Run! Run!

[Raider Bill]

I had a friend that made millions digging up old tanks and all surrounding dirt which he had to sterilize then replace.
It was a very costly job.
He got in on the federal superfund goldmine for tank remediation.

A block from my house is nice corner parcel that has been tested and found to be contaminated with engine oil and tranny fluid from a repair shop many years ago. It just sits as nobody wants the expense to rehab. 

I'd walk myself.

[BargeMonkey]

 Your quickest answer would be your state DEC, what it's called here in NY. Any tank that has the capacity to hold over 9850 @100% falls under a bunch of federal rules also. If you know this place is 40-50yrs old on the same tanks I'm willing to bet there's some form of contamination, get into NUTS money quick. What are your plans for the land ? Can you buy it cheap, make the pumps disappear in the dark and own it under an LLC that never keeps any money in the bank ? 🤷‍♂️😄 
 The corner store we used to have here local put in new tanks 15yrs ago, in NY there are rules how long an in ground tank can sit before it has to be pulled, it's 90-180 days they don't let you wait long. The people had the tank pulled and I want to say it was 10k ? I went thru this 3yrs ago when I bought new tanks right around the time the code change was going thru and went with triple wall above ground UL 205 tanks, 2x the money as in ground but they are literally bulletproof. 
 The shame of it is the little guy gets hammered if he spills 100gal, I was involved in an incident where we spilled OVER 12k gal about 3/8 of mile from the statue of liberty, I mean an absolute train wreck and I saw 1 guy show up and 2 show up to check the repair. The solution to pollution is dilution... 🤦‍♂️ 

[moodnacreek]

Sometimes the rules change so you need to investigate.  In my area tanks in clay soil may not spread the leaks if not disturbed. There is a process to abandon them by a licensed concern.  If sandy or gravel soil I would be scared even if the land was free.

[treemuncher]

Much of the issue can stem from the date that the place was built. Check your local and federal regs to see if the property might be grandfathered in to exclusion.

I purchased a property cheap and cleaned it up immediately. I already knew, from previous research, that the parcel was grandfathered into exclusion from the tank laws. Fluids had not been there for at least 30+ years to my knowledge and the tanks had holes the size of silver dollars throughout. There are still a number of these properties out there in rural areas. Cities are where you will likely experience any problems with nosey neighbors with an adjenda and an attitude.

If the property can not fall under grandfather rules, better check into all the legal responsibilities before you move any further.

[SwampDonkey]

In town, they took a gas station out (in ground tanks) about 3 years ago and the 'white hat' was there watching every move being made.

A few miles away about 15 years ago, they took down an old church on a site for a new filling station. The 'white hat' there spotted a little diesel seepage on the cement floor of the church where the stove oil tank sat. You'd think you was dealing with energized uranium. And this 'white hat' had a serious attitude and no sense of reality. :D

Both these sites were from previous owners. So a new owner is faced with all the cleanup bills. White hat involved, multiply the bill x 3 or more. :

Tore down a small 4 room school in one of the villages. Asbestos in it, all had to be hauled 100's of miles out of province to dispose of it. A $10000 tear down was $1.5 million.  :

Around these parts, a lot of old houses have asbestos siding. Stuff lasts for ever. How many $100,000's is that going to cost a new owner to replace?

Around here, if there is as much as a 20 L spill, the coast guard is involved. And that includes your gas jug for your saws, out 30 miles deep in the woods on crown land.

[Sedgehammer]

Here's the real deal though, if it was a big deal or a real problem why isn't the state already doing something about? The site has been abandoned for how long and just sitting. Like what, when a new owner buys it all of a sudden it became contaminated or started leaking. It's just a way to close down growth, especially in small communities. oh, forgot this one. The dirt can't stay where it's at, but it can go to a highly concentrated land fill of waste.......

@SwampDonkey  I knew there was a reason i didn't live in canada......

I have a pretty good idea on a fuel contamination leak at a air force base a few years back. 100's of truck loads of dirt. dirt ended up being a part of many, many different fill jobs at different times of the lift for lifts on new construction. I'm sure the company in charge was working hand in hand with the air force on that job. wood've cost 10's of millions to haul all that dirt to the kiln in st louis....

[Don P]

I worked on one station that was "mothballed" and had a galvanic tank protection system on that we recorded the readings of every month. At some point it will get dug up I'm sure.

The farmers market lot in town was the site of an old filling station. The owner donated it to the town, not a bad move. They got grants to help with the cleanup and monitor wells. They have tested stable for long enough now, they will develop the lot this fall. 

It would be worth finding out if there is any of that kind of help available. Towns don't like vacant properties, it drags down the tax base there and alongside. Getting their help writing for those grants or financial aids is a win/win for most communities. Not saying that doesn't require a little salesmanship.

[Corley5]

There's a lot in town that used to have a Shell station on it.  It and the tanks have been gone for 20 plus years but the contamination is still there.  The lot is still owned by Shell.  The store next door, the bar across the street and the canoe livery share it as a parking lot.  The contamination is a matter of public record and no one will buy it, Shell doesn't try to sell it and apparently they don't have to clean it up.

[Kindlinmaker]

Run the opposite direction as quickly as possible!  Do not walk, RUN!

Even if not requiring remediation today, it will at some point.  And as noted, they will go after each and every name associated with it. Most will be out of business and they will zero in on any warm bodies they can identify. Even if you are in the right and have no liability, how many unrecoverable tens of thousands are you prepared to spend proving it?

And watch for fast talkers more than willing to unload the property.  New tanks does not mean soil and/or ground water contamination was remediated and approved by the appropriate, multiple government organizations. And approval by one organization doesn't mean alignment with the others.  Also, what is acceptable today may be the worst thing in the world tomorrow.

There are easier ways to make a living.

[btulloh]

Livemusic if my memory is working I seem to remember you wanted to buy some land owned by one of the big timber companies a few years back. Anything ever come of that?  Just curious if there was "the rest of the story".

A lot of good advice above on the current question.  Anything with old fuel tanks can be a nightmare unless there's some local rules or subsidies that can make it work. Extreme caution is in order.  Good luck with everything. 

Bob T

[moodnacreek]

There was a automobile scrap yard here [on the hudson river] that cut up cars for years and all the oil went on the ground. The owner side stepped the whole thing when the end was near and the state cleaned it up. They got a hold of the records and billed every shop that sold them junk cars. Good old New York State.