Another dust collection for the mill question

[D6c]

I still need dust collection and I can't blow it into a grain wagon or a box.  I need to capture all the dust including the fine dust.  I can't have walnut dust blowing towards the animals.  I need to capture it, and I will still burn it.  

@scsmith42

......I've just been looking at Woodmizer's site on the mill and available MP100 motors.  It appears that there is no 230V 3ph option for the MP100.  They have a 460V 3ph, but I don't have that coming to my property.  I need to call about the LT15wide 10HP motor, but I suspect it's the same situation as the MP100.... 

If you need 460v, I would think it would be easy enough to add a single phase transformer ahead of a phase converter or a 3-phase transformer after a phase converter.

[scsmith42]

Brad. Making 480 from 240 is easy. All you need is a dry pack transformer.

I run my 15 hp edger (wired for 480) off of my 240 RPC via a dedicated step up transformer and it works fine.

Also, most 3 phase motors are wired so that you can reconfigure between 240 and 480 3 phase.

I have two dry packs. One is for stepping the 480v generator output down to 240, and the other is slaved to the edger stepping the 240 up to 480 so that I could run smaller wire.

My shop is fed by single phase line power and a 400 hp 480v generator. The generator feeds a dedicated 480v panel. One of the breakers in the panel feeds the step down transformer.

I also have a 30hp Phase-a-matic RPC, fed by the single phase line power. The output from the RPC and the output from the generator/step down transformer both feed into a manual transfer switch. The output from the transfer switch feeds my 240 3 phase load center.

This setup allows me to power my 240 3 phase equipment off of the RPC, or if I'm running the generator anyway I can opt for it to power all 3 phase equipment regardless of voltage. This saves me the cost of firing up the generator just to operate a 5 hp radial arm saw for a minute or two.

Based upon your loads, I would opt for at least a 30 hp RPC. I've noticed that my edger has more torque when fed by the generator versus my RPC. When we're edging dry 8/4 oak, sometimes the edger stalls out if fed by the RPC but not the generator.

I have noticed that the edger seems to have more power when fed by the RPC if I'm running multiple pieces of 3 phase equipment at the same time. I don't recall if it was DonP or Danny that advised me about that trick, but it works. Still not as powerful as when fed by the generator though.

My big equipment is all wired for 480.

My RPC supplies 240 3 phase power to the following:

1. 10 hp air compressor (I had to install a timed unloader valve on the compressor head to allow it to spin up with no load)
2. 5 hp radial arm saw
3. 5 hp dust collection system (I also have a 15hp 480 system for the high volume machines)
4. 5 hp shaper
5. 15hp edger via dedicated step up transformer.
6. 18" jump saw (I forget the hp)
7. 15 hp metal lathe
8. 15 hp CNC lathe
9. 3 hp vertical mill
10. 3 hp vertical bandsaw (metal cutting)

The RPC usually runs for 7 hours a day. I bought it used from a machine shop that sold it when they brought in 3 phase line power. I worked it for 10 years and then had it rebuilt by a local electric motor shop last year. Should be good for another 15 years or so.

[Brad_bb]

@scsmith42 , Is the step up transformer before the RPC on the input side?  Or after on the output side?  Where do you get that piece of equipment?  What do you think that costs?

[Satamax]

@Brad_bb

Please, read this.

https://billpentz.com/woodworking/cyclone/index.php

Mind you, i have a small version of this, with 700 sqft of filters. But wet chips still clog it up every now and then.

What i'm thinking of doing, for the next bigger iteration, having a catch "silo" before going in the cyclone, filtering the fines.

I nearly have all the parts for the next one. Rotary air lock blower, metal, pipes etc! I still need blast gates.

[YellowHammer]

As Scott says, some of the equipment can be bought used for pennies on the dollar, as other facilities upgrade their equipment.  New 3 phase equipment, such as panels, breakers, etc are very expensive, generally about 3 times the cost same as non commercial wiring and panel stuff.  I remember paying $800 for one 3 phase panel breaker for my generator, because I didn't find a used one.

Generally, a RPC has an 80% conversion power ratio, which means that it's supplied voltage begins to fall off when under high load, but that can be reduced by oversizing the input wiring over conventional NEC specs.  I redid my feed wiring when some of the equipment that ran off the RPC seemed sluggish, and it made quite a difference.  The power conversion issue is one reason that I opted to run my big planer off a generator, and not a big RPC.  For saws and other non full load equipment, an RPC works extremely well, and the installed capacitor banks on the RPC are an attempt to boost power for high draw surges.

Typically, most (high quality) generators actually produce cleaner power and rated voltage at the high draws because the generator motor itself runs at a higher RPM, the generator armature spins faster and it will generate cleaner and higher voltage.  So for high draw systems, generators actually will get the max power out of the tool.  This can be seen with a high voltage and high amp commercial clamp on voltmeter.  If you don't have one, I'd highly recommend it.

So the order of power preference for a high amp 3 phase tool is 1. Actual municipality line input, 2. generator line input, 3. Rotary phase converter input 4. Solid state voltage converter input.  In my case, three phase county line power wasn't an option, so I went with both a RPC and generator.

The issue with generators is that their is a certain amount of inconvenience and expense running long term, and most times the reserve power capability of a generator isn't really needed.  They drink fuel, which is a little painful these days.

Although all my equipment is wired to accept transfer switches to operate either from a generator or the RPC, and I actually have a manual transfer and isolation switch but I have not installed it.  The issue is the permitting process.  Anytime a generator is tied to county power through a transfer switch there is a whole different level of inspection and approvals required because the county is worried about electrocuting their repair linemen if there isn't proper backfeed protection, especially if the generator is more than a few kW and is installed commercial.  For me here in Alabama, it has a huge can of worms but when I told them I wasn't going to connect the generator to any line power, things got real easy.  I still had to get an inspection to get insurance and because I was using an LP tank to run the generator, but since the generator and planer are isolated, it was a no big deal.  So I needed an LP tank inspection and a generator inspection because it was a permanent installation.  Portable generators do not need inspections, fixed installations do, even to the size of the concrete pad they sit on.  Either way, in order to get the fixed LP tank filled, I needed successful inspections. It wasn't any big deal, just another thing do.  I actually didn't see anything in the inspection process that wasn't positive, so I didn't consider it a real problem.    

[scsmith42]

@scsmith42 , Is the step up transformer before the RPC on the input side?  Or after on the output side?  Where do you get that piece of equipment?  What do you think that costs?

Brad, my step up transformer is after the RPC. Keep in mind that this transformer is slaved to my edger.  I'm taking 240V 3 phase output from my panel board and feeding it to the 240 - 480V step up transformer, and it then goes to the edger.
My step down transformer is not in the RPC circuit. It's on the alternate feed to the transfer switch.
I've bought dry pack transformers from IRS auctions, from local craigslist ads, and from electrical supply houses that specialized in surplus electrical equipment.  They are pretty common.

[Sod saw]

.


The suggestion that Yellowhammer made about getting hold of a proper voltmeter and clamp on amp meter is spot on.

Be sure that the clamp on meter is able to read correct range(s) that you may have in your shop.  They come in various sizes.  Some intended for permanent installation and some hand held for portable readings.

I was using one this summer (a lot, all summer) to locate ground faults at boat connections in a marina application.  We were looking for leakage current in the range of very few thousandths of one amp current to determine why Ground Fault Circuits were false tripping.  The goal of the installation was to keep neighboring kids from being killed while swimming at that neighboring waterfront.

That meter would not be proper for most of your shop electrical testing (monitering).

Your goal in your shop is probably to notice if any tools are drawing too much current, but equally important is to be sure that all "hot" legs are drawing roughly the same current so that they are balanced.  True for single phase or 3 phase loads. 

My point is to encourage you all to have the proper testing tools for your own electrical system.

and,  have fun


.

[Dewey]

Watch the auctions.  Every once in a while there will be a small cyclone collector for sale.  You might even find one with an air lock that will drop the sawdust into a box.

I have an Airlock I would like to sell..