Log position and rotation when milling lumber

[Rene S]

I have been milling for about a year on and off and just starting to think about the position of the log (cant?) when slicing it up into lumber. The wood I am milling will mostly be used to build cabinets, beds, and the like.

There is this idea of rotating the log every cut or two to minimize how much the grain direction varies in a single board in order to minimize movement after drying. I saw this on a video I think Yellowhammer made. 

It seems to me that this will tend to make most of the grain in a board run in a semicircular pattern, like a cup or an arch. (Just figured out I could add a picture. I have included below a rough diagram I made.) I don't know enough about the movement of wood to know whether this is good, so-so, or the best you can do other than with quarter sawing. 

I also don't know whether I misinterpreted how this approach is supposed to work. Having worked as a carpenter years ago, I believe this can result in cupping, but maybe for fine woodworking that is okay since it can be addressed on a jointer-planer.

If someone could let me know, I would appreciate it.

Thanks,

Rene

PS I did a search and found some useful information, but nothing on this.




 

[SawyerTed]

Try the terms "grade sawing" and "quarter sawing ".

You'll get better info than I can describe here.  

[Erik A]

https://woodmizer.com/us/Resources/Free-Catalog/Woods-to-Woodshop-Guide

Read this one. It has a lot of good info!

[OlJarhead]

What you drew is referred to as cathedral grain.  As for grade sawing hardwoods YH is a good source.

[barbender]

 This book is a great resource to anyone that wants to produce grade hardwood. It was produced with a government grant so it is widely available as a free download.

 Manufacturing and Marketing Eastern Hardwood Lumber ... https://www.kansasforests.org/forest_products/forest_product_docs/Manufacturing-marketing-thin-kerf.pdf

[Ianab]

Lots of different ways to break down a log. Depends on species, end use, log size / quality, type of mill, and other "stuff". 

Are you sawing for the highest grade / value? Or is it pallet cants / blocking, and then production speed matters more than quality?

So "grade sawing" is more like the OP's diagram. You are looking to get the highest grade flat sawed boards from the outside of the log. As you trim them off the log / cant you get closer to the pith with more defects and lower value. But you have the best and widest boards off by then. You might end up throwing that pith section into "firewood". BTW, looks like 4 good boards are left in the initial slabs. Are they worth chasing? It depends, but they are probably the best grade boards, even if it's a bit of work to recover them. 

"Quarter sawing " means getting as many vertical grain boards as possible. In the right species / market / good logs this can pay better, but it's more work on a band mill, so you only do it if someone is paying a premium. Generally no one pays a premium for quarter sawed construction lumber, but you might do it with a high grade "old growth" log, if someone want's the VG lumber. Trying to quarter saw a low grade log is pointless as all your boards will have defects, where grade sawing might produce some good boards, and some smaller low grade ones. 

My mill is a Swing Blade, so I approach a log in a different way, top down. But it's the same considerations about the orientation of the boards. So yesterday's log was a 43" cypress log, short but a bit of taper. So I skim the top off, then saw some 1x1 stickers until I have a clear face. Then doing 1" drops I cut some more stickers and got into 1x6 flat sawed. Nice clear furniture grade wood. A few layers of that, and I start finding knots.  OK, so I switch to 6x1, and get some clear boards from the side of the log, and cut 6x4 garden edging from the knotty section, then some more clear 6x1 from the other side. Couple of layers of that, and I left the lower section, it was on the dirt, not bunks,  so I can't cut any lower, and at that stage it's better to flip it over, load it onto another part sawed log and saw the other side leaving a live edge table top. 

So there is no one cutting pattern that rules them all. But knowing the different ones, and why you want to use them is what learning to saw is about. 

[YellowHammer]

There are many different ways to saw logs, depending on species, grade desired, end use, etc.  "Grade Sawing" is what is traditionally used by professional hardwood sawmills to produce cathedral grain with the least amount of defects, and of course after that you can always add a little pinch of parallel to the bark or along the pith technique.  It's also the techniques I try to illustrate in my videos, with a few freestyle modifications on the technique every now and then, mostly based on specific species and it's tolerance to sawing pattern and grain change angles.  

Then there is also quarter sawn and rift sawn, as well as vertical grain sawn which is also used in softwood and not uncommon for flooring.  I've noticed that many exotics species are always vertical grain sawn, whether sawn to produce fleck or not, simply because they really like to move around.

If making live edge slabs, there isn't much you can do except a parallel bark through saw to get the least movement when going form bark to bark.

Of course, there is the always the very popular YouTube Spandex Sawing Pattern which seems to get an unusually large amount of exposure, pun intended.

I would recommend looking through the NHLA grading rules to understand what "good wood" is supposed to look like. Since you watch my videos, you know that "good wood" is a "trigger phrase" with me.  

I have found that the biggest impediment to proper sawing is the actual desire of the sawmiller to do a good job.  I get comments on my videos from other millers that say they "don't have time to cut straight lumber" and "the customer can't tell the difference anyway" and the "logs aren't good enough" and stuff like that.  That's one reason I did the last video of the apparently near garbage walnut log with the mega void to try to convince people that "bad logs can make good wood".  My point is that asking questions and doing the work is the best way to do a good job.

Also, it's not necessarily the mill, either.  I'm pretty sure that my old LT15 full manual will was the most accurate mill I've owned.  Its wasn't fast, by any means, but it sure would cut laser flat.

If you want to learn how to run a sawmill correctly these folks here on this Forum are the Real Deal, and you can take what they say to the bank.    

[barbender]

That was probably because that LT15 had kind of an anemic feed mechanism😁

 I believe that book download I posted contains the NHLA grading rules, and a section on hardwood lumber grading. It also has a chapter on log grading, which is very helpful in understanding everything through the process. 

[Rene S]

Thank you, everyone. This is very helpful.

I spent a couple of hours digesting some of the earlier posts and making notes and diagrams.

I will continue to look at what you have shared.

Being a one man team but also being a bit of a nudge, I am looking for a balance between time and muscle spent and quality of output. 

I appreciate you all taking the time to share your thoughts and experience with me.

Rene

[SawyerTed]

The best teacher is experience.  That's educated experience.  Having some knowledge and actually sawing based on that knowledge will lead to learning- understanding.  

It takes some time and one learning leads to another.   One level of understanding helps deal with a new log.  

It's a progression of knowledge.  

We can "tell" you stuff but until you see it, do it and understand it, it's all global warming....

You are on the right track.  

[jpassardi]

Ted: Very true - take the theory, apply it, make a mistake along the way but learn from it. For me this forum was an acceleration on the sawyer learning curve though.

Robert: The spandex method obviously gets numerous views because of the quality "content".  ;)

[Old Greenhorn]

Yeah, these guys are right. We can explain it to you, but we can't understand it for you. There is a lot to learn and you can't do it all in one shot or in a few weeks. You have to experience some (all?) of this stuff to really get the cause and effect part of deciding how to mill a log. I am only into it about 4 years and I am still having 'ah ha' moments on stuff that I have read here a dozen times, but never clearly understood until I saw it or did it myself.
 Just keep paying attention and learning as you go, then ask follow up questions. It's maddening and fun at the same time. Well, maybe not EXACTLY at the same time. :D

[beenthere]

The spandex method obviously gets numerous views because of the quality "content".

I'd presume it is the "visual" content, not the quality content.  ;) :

[chet]

Rene, one of the best things you have going for you, is you are the end user of your product. Take the time to understand why some your lumber may have split, twisted, cupped, warped ect. after it has been dried.  

[Rene S]

This book is a great resource to anyone that wants to produce grade hardwood. It was produced with a government grant so it is widely available as a free download.

Manufacturing and Marketing Eastern Hardwood Lumber ... https://www.kansasforests.org/forest_products/forest_product_docs/Manufacturing-marketing-thin-kerf.pdf

I've started to read this, and it is very interesting. Thank you.
And yes, I agree with everyone who is saying that a combination of technical learning and hands on practice is the way to go. Weather permitting, this weekend I am going back out there to try out what I have picked up here this week.

[OlJarhead]

Those yoga pants techniques!  I'm wondering when YH is going to demo them 🤔 

[barbender]

Yellowspandex

[Old Greenhorn]

Good name for a new boat. :D

[barbender]

 Rene, you'll quickly pick up on the fact that we have a low opinion of the 'spandex sawyers" as they've been termed here. These are the "influencer" types that have become a bit of a plague imo. There are a lot of them in the sawmilling and firewood fields making videos on YouTube,  and whatever other social media they find.

  Any of them I have taken a few minutes to watch don't know what they're talking about, but they act like they do. All to often, they have a wife or girlfriend dressed in tight or otherwise revealing clothes, that gets a large proportion of the camera time. Gets them views🤷

 I couldn't care less, except for the fact that companies that would advertise here in the past, are pulling their sponsorships and putting their ad money towards these folks. It will just result in a dumbing down of information🤷 Man, I'm starting to sound like a grumpy ol mutha😁

 Well, I gotta go. I got my wife some clothes I want her to try on for when we do firewood😂

[Rene S]

Ahhh, thanks for the explanation. 

I saw a few of them a year or so ago and kept walking. I like women, but not as click bait.

[Andries]

I nominate BB as the Brave Man of the Year.
It's not too far from Winnipeg toDeer River, so our weathers got to be similar.
It's 3° tonight with the wind factored in.
My wife would use my head to split wood if I suggested that kinda wardrobe upgrade.
😁😉😁

[barbender]

My wife will probably use my head to split wood too, but heckling is my love language so what else can I do?😂

[OlJarhead]

It took me a while to understand that the yoga pants videos are NOT sawmill videos but rather, well, yogabutt watching videos etc....I had to put them out of my mind as a Youtube creator and realize I'm not in the same category (nether my butt or what I do on video lol) and I had to ignore their millions of views.

The advertising is sad to hear about.  Companies are always looking for 'bang' for their buck and I get that but frankly, I doubt anyone watching tank top and/or yogapants sawyers isn't interested in the sawmill (they probably don't even know it's there)...

But I digress!  Sorry, rant over!  Don't mean to deviate!  And no, Robert PLEASE NO!

There are some channels that are dedicated to sawmilling and for different reasons.  Robert's (Hobby Hardwoods) is primarily hardwood grade sawing.  I've said it a number of times and I'll say it again:  I learn from him and others here on FF and if I'm going to try sawing hardwoods for grade I'd study his stuff.

I'm primarily a softwoods sawyer and generally for cabin and bard builds and I tend to make videos about mobile milling for those kinds of uses.  Different strokes ;)  There are others out there like Out of the Woods Sawmill, TC Sawmills, Sawing with Sandy, Northwest Sawyer etc -- they are all at different levels of knowledge but I've never heard any of them say goofy things ;)  I think because like most of us, they are producing for customers and the customer drives their production.  Meaning, you produce well or you don't get to keep the customers ;)  So I think they are good channels to watch ;)

Cheers

[jpassardi]

Barbender, you have a twisted sense of humor. I'm afraid you and I would get along quite well!