What does it cost to mill a tie?

[Bill H]

My brother and I just bought a 170 acres that was high graded about 18-20 years ago. They left a alot of maple , chestnut oak, and hickory. This property has a southern aspect and is pretty steep which makes for slow growing timber not what we wanted but priced were we can buy and sell in a couple years and afford a better timber growing site. My thought is I plan to harvest myself then sell to highest bidder in piles, but was thinking about taking some to a couple of guys I know that have band mills (one lt40hdg25,one lt40hd25esuper) to mill ties then take to Koppers. I asked one how much to cut and as he hasn't cut any ties before said he would have to cut a few to see how it would work out. I also figured I would get some 4/4 to air dry off some of these tie logs, am I dreaming or will they be able to do this and both of us make money?

Bill

[Ohio_Bill]

Bill, I have cut cross ties on a Woodmizer and for me and a helper a good day is about 40 ties. In our area that would gross about $ 800.00   . He would have the cost of operating the mill and you would have the cost of harvesting so you will need to see if the numbers work.

[Ron Wenrich]

Let's see if this works for you. Tie logs are worth about $200/Mbf, ties are worth about $450/Mbf.   Can you make those number work?

That means all those small sawtimber trees that you want to cut into ties are only worth $200/Mbf on the harvest side.  You might be looking at $125-150/Mbf depending on you harvesting ability.

On the sawing side, you have about $250/Mbf for the mfg side.  That means you must be able to produce a product for the differential.  Remember that not all pieces will be worth that much.  There will be pieces that are worth less and must be considered into the mix.

[WH_Conley]

Ohio_Bill, you run pretty much the same production that I do with a WM.

Bill H, If you are going to sell to Koppers in Sciotoville a 7x9 will bring $19.00 + $.50 haul bill. One guy at tie yard last week said he had sawn some ties for another fellow for half, and kept all of the lumber. I don't know of anybody that has sawn ties for someone else so I don't know if this the going rate.

Ron's formula is correct, only difference is that ties in this area will bring $410/mbf and the logs will range from 200-225. Pretty much the same for logs but less for the tie.

[Bro. Noble]

You need to consider what is to be done with the product you make in addition to ties.  We cut our own timber and saw ties,  grade lumber,  and pallet stock.  The trees we have been cutting recently would be pretty typical 'tie logs' for the most part.  For every $1000 we sell in ties,  we sell around $800 worth of grade lumber and $200 -300 of pallet stock.  

[Ohio_Bill]

Bill, A straight log  12 "dia  will make a 7by 9 cross tie with no side lumber or maybe one board. Around here  7by 9 oak brings the most money  7by 8 are less  and 6by 8 are much less .  Oak is premum and all other they call MHW  [ mixed hard wood ].We cut our logs 105 "  , and unless you can cut over 22ft   the 105" brings the most money .I would suggest  you get a price list from you tie buyer and cut what makes the most money .  Tie's are hard work but have a quick turn around.

[Bill H]

Ron,
12" - 15" MHW I have cut I got $.250-320 mbf from the mill, got to wondering week or two ago and called Koppers and priced ties at Beaver Dam- 7x9 mhw $ 17.00 for MHW and $19.50 for oak + $1.00 frt on each. On 6x8 ties $10.00 +$.50 freight.

WH,
Koppers have a plant in Guthrie Ky (Todd County) and a buying station in Beaver Dam. Beaver Dam is the closest and probally where I would take them.

Bro Noble,
You are saying what I am thinking about, the ties pay the bills and the grade lumber is in addition on top of what you would get for the ties. I would try to air dry as much of the lumber as I could with plans to try a solar kiln in the future. I am currently air drying some cedar which I believe is almost impossible to mess up.


I figure the only way to find out for sure is to try a few loads and see what my real costs are. That and the fellow with the closest mill stays pretty busy so getting them milled may be a problem and I do not want to buy a mill untill I find more markets for the figured wood I know I will find.

Thanks for the info so far I have alot to learn  :

[Minnesota_boy]

It looks to me like Ron_Wenrich is aying that if the timber is worth 200-250/M and sawing costs $250/M and you can haul for $15/M, then you sell the ties for $450/m, you have to make it in volume and if you have enough volume you get rich or the sawyer quits, whichever comes first.  Look real hard at the amount of side lumber you can get and the grade it will produce, figure the value and the cost to sell it and then decide on how much of your time you are willing to put into the project.  I think I might just sell the logs and go fishing.

[FiremanEd]

"Average" varies greatly from area to area. We find that with "average" tie logs in our area we get equal amounts of ties and trim boards. We average about 14" on the small end, a lot under 14" but the few over add up quickly in trim boards.

One key in sawing ties is to understand what wain your buyer will take. If you try to make every tie "pretty" with 4 perfect edges you'll make a lot of pallet cants that could have made ties. Talk in detail to your buyer. The 9" side is the important side. They'll take more wain on the 7" side than the 9". They'll take more right at the end or in the middle than in the 12-24" from each end area, this is where the rails rest. There are a lot of factors that you need to talk w/ your buyer about. There's a fine line between sawing junk ties and sawing to the grade rules. If you saw junk you won't be selling them long, if you only saw the perfectly square corners you will be making a lot of $300/m cants out of $430/m ties.

Also talk to your buyer about sawing 10' ties verses 8' ties. you can increase your production significantly by sawing logs that are 20% longer.

[TN_man]

Buy our own sawmill and get the $450mbf without having to split it with someone else. If take your mill into the woods you will save yourself the hauling of the logs. Ties are much easier to haul since t hey stack nicely. There are some good used mills out there that are very reasonably priced and the money you make from the ties will easily make the payments.
I was cutting ties until recently when I am having a hard time finding a tie-log supplier. I keep searching around and can't find anybody willing.
Hire somebody to run the sawmill for you and pay him 20$/hr. If he cuts one tie in an hour, he just paid for himself.

[Bill H]

FiremanEd
          Guess I will make a trip down and see what the buyer wants, so we can get good quality with out being wasteful.

TN_man
          I keep looking at the sawmill exchange and dreaming but no $$  :( keeps me from going that route. So I will workm with someone else and hope to sell enough to get those $$  ;) and in the future 2-3 years buy that mill and build a solar kiln to learn with.

Bill