They cut my tree

bitternut · February 08, 2006, 12:45:31 PM

Well ICUTTREES if you mean that tree was 5' over the line on your side and the line was clearly marked that logger must think you are dumber than a box of rocks. I guess he ought to be nice about it. We like pictures. How about posting a picture of the line and the stump. Were there any other trees over the line that he cut or was that the only tree? Me thinks that guy would be suddenly having lots of equipment failures if he pulled that crap in my woods. Guys like that give good loggers a real black eye.

Ron Wenrich · February 08, 2006, 06:25:24 PM

I have been involved in several of trespass cases, always as an expert witness. I have used both stump counts and arbor methods that Steve Wiley talks about. The arbor methods are OK if you are in an situation where the tree is worth more as landscape than it is for timber. Forest trees have a pretty heavy reduction in value as opposed to a tree in a front yard.

You're going about it the right way. You have a stumpage value, and you have measured the stump. That tree would be approximately 34-36" DBH, depending on stump height. Four logs seem about right for a cucumber tree, which pretty much resembles our yellow poplar.

The stumpage price may have been based on the International scale. Many state agencies use that scale. However, loggers use the Doyle scale. There is a little difference between the 2 scales, with International being higher. I would also use a form class of 80.

If you look up in the right hand corner, you will see a thing called "Forum Extras". We have a tree volume calculator that will tell you the volume of the tree. A 36" tree has 1849 Doyle, or 1921 Int. A 35" tree has 1715 Doyle or 1799 Int. A 34" tree has 1596 Doyle or 1690 Int. You can see how much difference an inch makes.

If you use the middle ground of 1799 bf Int., you will come up with a price range of $450 - $630. Triple stumpage is $1350 - $1900. This should be your negotiation range.

I would try to keep it out of the courts. It is small enough to take to small claims court. I don't know of any that have gone this route, but I am usually involved with a lot more than 1 tree.

I don't think I would cut the logger much of a break. He didn't cut you any, and was perfectly willing to chance cutting a tree over the line or at least clearly a line tree. Any break you cut him is more than what he would have cut you.

Ron Scott · February 08, 2006, 09:36:25 PM

I'm still not sure on what side of the line the tree is on, yours or the neighbors? Has the property line been surveyed to legally establish that it is your tree and the neighbor does not dispute it and is only the one tree involved?

Was the tree just cut and left in treapass or was it cut and removed from the area which then removes it from trespass action to criminal action?

Depending upon the situation,Tillaway, Wiley, and Ron W. have given good advice.

Black_Bear · February 10, 2006, 07:21:04 AM

One of my first actions would be to determine the laws in Ohio. Here in Maine any operation greater than 10 acres must have the boundaries clearly marked BY THE LANDOWNER. So if you do not have an existing line with monuments at the end (or a stonewall/fence along the line) then you must get it surveyed. In many cases the logger does not have a stake in the outcome. It is the landowner's head that rolls.

Personally, I would initially avoid the legal route with the landowner. Try to resolve it in a friendly manner as you have done. But know the law so you can use it to your advantage. If that does not work and the landowner/logger avoids you or will not speak about the problem or they think that no damages have occurred, then I would pay the $100 to have a nice letter written by a lawyer. You would be surprised at the results that one letter from a lawyer will produce. I would, at least, contact the landowner. He/she may not realize that a problem exists. That may be the reason the logger is being so nice. If he knows he can capitalize on this venture then what will stop him from doing it again? Nip it in the bud one way or the other.

BTW, installing a fence may be the worst thing you could do, especially if you do not know where the true boundary line is. Fences lead to many boundary disputes. If you have one installed, make sure that both landowners are aware as to where that fence stands in relation to the boundary. If both landowners agree to install a fence on what they think is the boundary, then that fence may eventually ripen into the true boundary.

Dan_Shade · February 10, 2006, 07:57:51 AM

Do you have a picture of the tree or the log? i don't really know much, but if it is veneer quality, it may be worth more.

Ron Wenrich · February 10, 2006, 12:13:30 PM

You will never be able to guesstimate whether it was veneer quality or not. That would never hold up in court. Nothing more than speculation.

SwampDonkey · February 10, 2006, 03:17:24 PM

I agree with Ron. All my estimates have been based on pulp. You know it was worth something or it wouldn't be cut. But there is no way to prove it was worth a sawlog or a veneer log. She's long gone.

Dan_Shade · February 10, 2006, 05:10:50 PM

even if there are pictures of the log/tree? I'm just curious, not second guessing you guys...

SwampDonkey · February 10, 2006, 05:32:14 PM

Isn't likely the log was left, just a stump and lotsa brush. ;) If you have a picture of it standing it still don't prove it's veneer. What's it look like inside and is that the tree from that stump? What about the big seem, cavity or scar around the other side of the tree out of the picture? I have heard/read that in some cases DNR has collected stump and log samples to verify that was the tree from that stump and that gets expensive. And when it's mixed in the log pile, good luck. :

In this case it might be the only cucumber tree there, but who knows but the logger and landowner of the ajacent ground weather or not they might have had 5 cucumber trees of similar diameter and if they were close to one another they might likely be sibling trees. Now go scout around the brush piles on my 500 acres and try and prove I didn't have cucumber trees also. :-\

Ron Wenrich · February 10, 2006, 06:22:37 PM

Sometimes its hard enough to figure out if its veneer quality in a log let alone a tree or a picture. Here's an example that happened several years ago:

The loggers brought in a red oak that was 31" at the end of a 32' log. The bossman was real proud of that log and asked me what I thought.

I told him it wasn't veneer quality, but I'm just a forester and a sawyer. He said he would sell it for veneer, and he did.

When the log was taken to the veneer yard, the owner was there when it was unloaded. He asked the veneer buyer if he payed veneer prices for that log. He said he did, and the owner fired him on the spot.

Stephen_Wiley · February 10, 2006, 10:24:51 PM

:D Ron, it never ceases to amaze me through public venues or personal arrogance, how much others want to know - what you know, than upon recieving it immediately defy it.

ICUTTREES,

I agree with Ron's procedure for value and agree the logger does not need a break ! I would add these thoughts when you begin your negotiation equations;

1.) There is a labor cost not accounted for (by the value of the log) in the clean up of the branches and debris. Evaluate on a day basis how long it will take to clean the mess up.

2.) Also you have the right to charge for the cost of soil prep, plant cost, planting labor and up to six years maintenance for the re-establishment of the lost tree.

Both the above are add on costs !

Black_Bear · February 11, 2006, 06:19:21 AM

Mr. Wiley stated:

"1.) There is a labor cost not accounted for (by the value of the log) in the clean up of the branches and debris. Evaluate on a day basis how long it will take to clean the mess up.

2.) Also you have the right to charge for the cost of soil prep, plant cost, planting labor and up to six years maintenance for the re-establishment of the lost tree.

Both the above are add on costs !"

I'm just curious as to whether Oregon has statutes in place to enforce these add-on costs? It seems as though that the states with significant forest industries have implemented statutes, or have case law, that protect the landowners in cases like this.

From what I have read in the past the Oregon legislature has gone to great lengths to protect the industry as a whole. I would venture to guess that the biggest issues the left coast must deal with are the environmental issues?

Sawyerfortyish · February 11, 2006, 08:23:17 AM

I would like to add a little here. If this logger wrongfully and knowingly cut this tree he may try to make restitution. But it may or may not be even close to what it was worth. If you try to pursue for all related costs of cleanup and so on he might avoid you all togeather finish the job and pull out. He's already proven he's not trustworthy. Good luck collecting. If it were me I would try to get whatever I could out him while he there. Ask him to cleanup the limbs. As for involving more people(lawyers tree experts ect) the more involved the less you'll end up with and it may cost you in the end. If you take it all the way to court and win. He still probably won't pay then who's going to collect. The courts award money but rarley if at all help collect.

Sawyerfortyish · February 11, 2006, 08:32:50 AM

I'll also add I been here and done this. I had trees cut on my property and had it surveyed and finally settled with the person that cut them. If I didn't have a surveyor friend it would have cost more than the trees were worth.

wiam · February 11, 2006, 09:04:52 PM

Why does intent have anything to do with it. Loggers are supposed to know who's land they are on. I know how it works, but why?

Will

Frank_Pender · February 11, 2006, 10:05:00 PM

BB, we have the rules and laws to back up the rule of law. I have been down that road with a number of folks. About 5 years ago for one of my previous students. She and her husband had three truckloads of hardwood logs felled and removed while the owners were away. The excuse the neighbor used was, "They were blocking the sun from hitting my ryegrass field and production was low because of no sun." With the completion of my survey, he paid far more than he would make over 20 years of fines and costs. He was a real jerk, to say the least.

Black_Bear · February 11, 2006, 10:43:31 PM

Mistakes do happen, but if the laws aren't in place then how many more "mistakes" would we see?

Wiam: check out this article I ran across last week. It describes the levels of intent fairly well. Scroll down a little ways to get to the Timber Trespass passage:

http://www.nhbar.org/for-the-public/personal-injury-tort-law.asp

On another note: just last month the guy who is cutting my brother-in-laws land noticed tire tracks in and out of his yard. Sure enough the pile of cedar he had been building was cut in half. Well, in northern Vermont there are only so many cedar mills and one of them was in the same town as the lot. The thief didn't bring the wood there, but the mill owner knew exactly who did it and what kind of truck he drove. He had been suspicious of this guy for some time. Well, the cutter beat feet for the next mill, about 30 miles away. The thief's truck was being unloaded as he pulled in. I'll end by saying that I would easily wager money that the thief will not return to that particular yard.