Need help to decide on 4 sider.

karl · December 06, 2006, 06:03:48 PM

Need to justify buying a Logosol PH260, blower and 25Kdiesel Genset, used, low hrs $15,000.or less(hopefully)
From what info I have gleaned from searching the Forum I have determined;

1.this is a machine that will plane/shiplap/t+g the pine and cedar that I use at a speed of 800-1200L' per hr.

2. Setup should be about 30 min. per day/run

3. Material will (often)need to be presized -1000L'per hr(?)

4. machine has a decent life expectancy(probably longer than mine)

Accurate so far?

I will need to also address a covered trailer as I want it portable since I anticipate some planing for another contractor and want to be able to surface in my millyard.(and we have run out of buildings!)

The questions I still have are;

1. what are my anticipated costs for operating(fuel, sharpening,tooling)

2. what is the going rate for planing /molding ($.15 bd'????)

3. Am I nuts to go this route, or should I just try to sub out the 20-30,000 bd' that I currently need to s3s and s4s or t+g annually?

4. what have I overlooked?

Any and all input appreciated

stevareno · December 06, 2006, 07:44:17 PM

I personally would never own a 4 head moulder without a profile grinder. You can imagine what happens the first time a board with a bullet in it goes through your machine. It's not horribly expensive to get your tooling sharpened but the down time is costly. You can generally get your knives resharpened for about 20.00 per set. The tooling itself on the other hand can get costly. A set of 3 1/2" casing knives will run ya around 125.00. If you have a profile grinder, you can purchase a 25" bar of knife stock for about 90.00.

I can't really speak for the fuel cost since we run our moulders on 3 phase electric... You'd be surprised how fast that meter spins! The 30 minute setup time sounds about right if you're only planning on changing once a day. One of our moulders stays setup for one profile but we generally get about 6 hours of runtime out of an 8 hour work day. You have to account for a few hangups caused by a loose knot or a split end. We take a little time to blow the sawdust away from our guides and such.

You can pick up a decent profile grinder used for about 6,000.00. Well worth it if you plan on using this machine daily. 15 cents per bft. seems a little cheap from my experience especially on small runs. I'd be shooting for more like 15 cents per lineal ft. but that's me..

Good Luck,
Steve

Kelvin · December 06, 2006, 09:40:24 PM

Local millworks charges .37 a linial foot. Amazing, but i guess it works! Add that up per bd ft of 2 1/2" oak flooring! What i don't understand is for a small shop you can buy 2 shapers, big planer and dust collection and have a lot of money left over for what they charge for just the logosol. Its not that much machine really. If you could just line up the planer with both shapers you could kinda build your own! Just nudge them around when you need to! Ha! As far as portable. It might be cheaper to build another barn. Might see how much local millshops charge, see how much you can make on doing it, how much demand you actually have, and see if the numbers work out, unless you have a trust fund.
as far as grinding your own knives. You can just have multiples of the same profile and ship them out to get sharpened, unless of course... the trust fund thing.
I've made a lot of flooring and molding on my shaper. If you think about it, you have to presize for logosol, so you basically sent it through the planer already, shape one side, then just shape the other. You are saving one pass most cases. I'm real small time though.
good luck.
KP

fireman05 · December 06, 2006, 09:56:54 PM

Karl,

I have owned my Logosol PH 260 for approximately 18 months now. I have no problem staying busy with it and make a decent profit. Definately invest in the 3 phase unit! The single phase unit is a bit underpowered for hardwoods. Pine and cedar the machine does well on. I only need to pre-plane my flooring to ensure I get a good finish and this may be due to the machine being underpowered a bit for hardwood.

I charge $.15/bd ft for VM paneling and S4S softwoods and $.17/bd ft for S4S hardwood. Flooring is $.35/bd ft and moulding is $.40/lineal ft. I don't get rich but I have decent profits with these rates which allows me to offer more services etc. Since I operate a Nyle L200 kiln all month long as well as the moulder, I am not exactly sure what it costs me per bd ft to operate the moulder. With the kiln operating each day of the month except times to unload/reload it and processing approximately 3-5000 bd ft of material per month, my highest electric bill was around $400 for the month. I would estimate $10 per/MBF?

I have the knives re-sharpened locally at one of the machine shops that has the capability to grind my knives and they charge me $25 for 2 sets of 2 knives.(top/bottom cutters)

The set up is relatively quick once you get the hang of it and the machine does a good job finishing the material. I am satisfied with the machina and it's performance, only wish I had bought one sooner and the 3 phase model.

karl · December 07, 2006, 06:40:52 PM

Thanks for the replies. All good info/thoughts.
I have considered creating a Frankenplaner out of one of my Woodmasters and shaper spindles to get 3 side milling capability and save some bucks, and also know that while I am creating/fine tuning a piece of "Rube Goldberg" equipment that will have little resale value I can be planing/molding.
I have no plans to run miles of flooring since it is dirt cheap just across the border in Quebec.

The chance to get this Logosol/Genset just kinda happened and if I were still building 60hrs a week I'd buy it in a heartbeat, but now it may actually have to pay for itself! ;)

Fireman05- nice to hear that pine, cedar will feed in one pass. Any feel for the amount in lineal feet that you are producing in softwood in say- 8 hrs(6 actual running time)? I'm thinking I would need to run at least 5000L' per 8 hrs to make it worth doing. ???(considering it will be idle most of the week)

I have been known to grind my own knives for moulding in the woodmaster when it was relatively simple- not something that would be a great idea in a 7000 rpm head

I do grind my own straight knives though. Profile grinder is down the road from here when I am competing with Arkysawyer for a second Logosol me thinks. :D

Thanks

DR Buck · December 08, 2006, 08:56:34 AM

Quotefor a small shop you can buy 2 shapers, big planer and dust collection

Great idea Kelvin. I've been thinking about a 4-sided operation as well, but the PH-260 price is a little steep for now. I already have the 18" planer, so the shaper idea is a great way to go. Even adding only one at first will keep initial cost down.

mur · December 09, 2006, 11:40:11 AM

Hi Karl:
I'm with fireman05. Get the 3 phase. Planing rates vary a lot. There is a shop down in Southern BC that charges 25 cents per lineal foot for 1x6 and smaller - 2 1/4" flooring included - and he charges a 250 buck set up fee! And I know another outfit that will run wood all day for a little over 10 cents per board foot - for this price you have to bring B-train loads. All markets are differently priced. You'll have to find out what you could have your wood run for by someone else. Plus, what is the quality of their finish? The volume you mention might be better to be looked at being contracted out.
I can't speak for the cost of operating your genset as I have a Hydro drop and run through a phase converter.
Tooling costs can be very expensive if you use Logosol factory knives. I switched to North American tooling. Haven't got to run it yet though as I'm coming off a medical event right now. Should be back to work next April/May.
Markets are going into a downturn right now and there is a lot of good used equipment out there - very reasonably priced.

fireman05 · December 09, 2006, 12:08:55 PM

Karl,
I am able to process 4" and 5" cedar or pine material VM T & G through @ a rate of approximately 600-700 linaeal ft per hour (1000 bd ft in 4 hours) by myself.

karl · December 09, 2006, 03:48:31 PM

mur and fireman-
Those are the things I really want to know up front.

The machine I'm considering is 3ph.

One thing I keep hearing is that the Logosol is "kinda fussy" about straight and uniform- all important to a finished product in all cases, but to a lesser degree in pine and cedar paneling than in flooring. I would like to think I could take softwood lumber from the mill to the kiln to the planer to the package without detouring through a straightline rip and SS planer. Sounds like with care in sawing and sorting of real funky stuff when feeding it just might work,
OR- Maybe I'm needing a different machine?????

It is good to hear from another source that the factory tooling is not the most cost effective way to go. That often seems to be the case.

600-700 L' per hr would fit with the figures I can work with- would like more, but that's my nature in most things :

I will be taking a trip to see the machine(hopefully demonstrated) next week, maybe those nagging questions will get answered.....

Thanks again

Tom · December 09, 2006, 04:14:38 PM

Karl
I'm talking out of school but I have seen that Logosol 4 sided moulder planer at Moultrie and they were taking green pine and oak boards directly off of the sawmill and running them through the thing. They were getting some rather impressive mouldings out of the other end, considering it wasn't dry stock. I don't remember any consternation over straight edging.

Perhaps it was all happening so fast that I just wasn't paying that close attention. There were some fellows there with a lot of shop experience that were duly impressed.

The boards had some pretty straight edges. I'm thinking that the first knives are set far enough ahead to make them a joiner and they were cleaning up the little bad spots.

It's an impressive machine to be so small.

fireman05 · December 09, 2006, 07:27:10 PM

Guys,
The Logosol will produce very straight finished material. It will take out some of the waviness from typical bansaw cuts especially when it dips at the knots. However, when it comes to flooring where you need to be a little more precise as to the finished dimention in thickness and widths, I prefer to straight line rip the material to ensure the quality. Try and lay hardwood flooring that is not straight or the same width due to whatever reason and you will get frustrated quite rapidly! ;)

I usually only straight line rip on my Wood Mizer sawmill the flooring material, bowed material that is too crooked to push through the Logosol and make straight finished product and mouldings since I saw and dry wider boards and resaw to get the most from each piece depending on what the finished product is. Remember if it goes in straight and your machine is set up properly, it will come out straight which will help in a satisfied customer. One customer that gets bad milling from your shop and you have the potential to loose several other customers! Bad news travels faster than good when it comes to quality.

I also am looking for other sources for the profile and straight knives for the Logosol. I don't feel as though I am getting as long as I should between sharpenings. The steel seems to loose it's edge sooner than I would expect. Especially in hardwoods(oak and ash).

One other point. I saw, kiln dry and finish my lumber into S4S, VM T&G, flooring and mouldings. The one area that you can't controll completely is what that lumber does in the kiln drying process. I probably experience 5-10% defect in the drying process usually due to uncontrollable factors such as grain of the lumber, stress within the lumber due to how it grew etc. Usuall the defect is in the way of lateral bowing. Which results in the lumber needing to be resawn/straight line ripped so that it is not totally lost.

Hopefully this helps!

karl · December 10, 2006, 01:17:43 PM

Rather impressed that the machine will plane green- that is'nt something I had even considered it capable of doing....not that I plan too.
I agree the better the product going in - the better the final one is going to be, ESPECIALLY in hdwd. My use will be primarily for w. pine , ew cedar s4s, t/g, shiplap, novelty with the
hdwd to a lesser degree and with the added profit margin on hdwd I can afford to rip and size as I would need to for any other operation anyway.

Local research has convinced me that I may inddeed use it more than I had originally anticipated- kinda like my mill- I bought it to cut my own stock, and MY logs are going to rot before I get them sawn :

I'm leaning more toward the purchase with the info from you guy's- thanks for the valuable input. FF rules! 8)

Gotta see it in action.....

karl · December 13, 2006, 06:16:28 PM

I saw, I "play nd", I was reasonably impressed, it's coming to live with me. Should arrive next Wed or so.

P.O skip planes in advance too- even on swd. Looks like I will be setting up the spare 12" woodmaster to size stock and save wear and tear on the more expensive machine.

Sure hope this works out...... ;)

May have to add onto the sandbox... :

Thanks again for the input.