Taxes on alternative fuels?

[Dan_Shade]

DanG, home made biodeisel will never become mainstream, it's a lot of work and investment to get that far.  same thing with alcohol. 

[Cedarman]

There is no logic in taxation. If you think there is, it is just coincidence.  Taxes on alcohol and tobacco are to keep you from using so much and because they can tax it.
Property taxes for schools.  I have no kids in schools, but still have to pay for them because they are for the general welfare of the state.  The lady that doesn't have a car benefits from roads that make it possible for her to get mail, groceries, friends to visit etc.  Income taxes, because our silly ancestors voted to let them do it.  Sales tax, same reason.  Fuel taxes, based on gallons used rather than miles driven. Is that fair?
Anytime we can keep from taxing, we are better off.  Just because lower income folks don't pay income taxes, doesn't mean they are not taxed to death by all the other insidious taxes. 

I will relock my tripped trigger.

[stonebroke]

there should be no tax on any renewable fuel. This would be the best way to encourage renewable fuels. Put all the tax on regular fuels, this would also have the benefit of raising the price of nonrenewable fuels and discouraging there use.

Stonebroke

[DanG]

Cedarman, I bet you're just a barrel of laughs around April 15, eh? :D :D

I hate paying taxes as much as the next guy, but somebody has to pay for the infrastructure we enjoy.  I just think that everybody should pay a share, and that is what's happening, to a degree.  The person who has no car is paying fuel tax too, because it is being passed on to them by the people who bring their mail and goods.  To put things in perspective, our car gets 21 mpg and we drive it about 15,000 miles per year.  The fuel tax here is 42 cents per gallon, so I'm paying 2¢ per mile, or $300 per year.  It ain't exactly taking the food off my table.  It is the other $2.58 per gallon that is killing me!  The tax that is kicking things out of balance is the sales tax.  At 7% of the price, there is an additional 21 cents per gallon tax on $3 fuel!  That is figured on the price, so the State is getting a huge windfall with the increased fuel price!  Of course, that figure is a little bit skewed because the sales tax is figured on the fuel cost before taxes.

The illogical part of the tax lies in the way the money is spent.  They could certainly get by with a lot less! >:(

[OneWithWood]

By golly, DanG, I think I should get a break too!!  And I do  8) 8) 8)

It is good that someone at the state house was looking for a way to push alternative fuels.  I would bet though that if you were to look closely at the issue of taxing individuals who make their own fuel you would find that the dollars expended to collect the tax, especially one that would rely almost totally on self-reporting, far exceed the dollars available for collection.  I think it is similar to the personal exemption folks get for brewing their own beer and wine. 

I also have to agree with Dan_Shade.  Making bio-diesel at home is a very time consuming effort.  It takes time to collect the oil and it takes time to brew the stuff.  If I didn't thoroughly enjoy tinkering like a mad scientist I doubt I would have become involved in the adventure.

[DanG]

OWW, for the sake of discussion, lets say you decided you could do better making and selling fuel instead of playing around with wood. :  Should the people you're selling to be exempt from paying taxes, too?

The collection system would indeed be cumbersome if we all had to file an annual fuel tax form.  That's why it is collected at the pump.  How else ya gonna do it?  Toll roads?  I live on a County road that get's an average of 1 car per hour.  Should we put a toll booth at each end of it?  That would be ridiculous, but the road gets maintained, and somebody has to pay for that. 

Now let's look at your pore old Aunt Maudie.  She lives in a little apartment on a very limited income and works as a door greeter at Walmart.  She obviously can't make her own fuel to get to work, and nobody within a hundred miles of here sells renewable fuel, so she has to buy gasoline.  Is it fair to make her pay my taxes for me, Stonebroke?

Now before anybody else gets their trigger tripped ;) ;D  these are just rhetorical questions intended to provoke thoughtful discussion.  I'd really like to see some good ideas on how we can sort out some of the mess we've made for ourselves. :P

[Tom]

Tax the right to use the road to get the maintenance funds, not the rate at which the vehicle burns fuel.  If there must be a tax, charge on the license tag and let the bureaucrats fight it out as to which segment of the Government gets a piece of the pie.  I'm sure there will be some vehicles that will remain exempt. 

If the local drunk loses his license and takes his tractor to town for groceries, what's the difference?  The important thing to remember is the relativity.  It's not our job to earn money to support the governments, it's the governments job to protect us as we live.  The cost of doing business shouldn't kill off the customer.

Taxes are just a means for the government to "take" money from its citizens to meet debts incurred by whom?

[OneWithWood]

If I were to get serious, build a large capacity bio diesel brewing facility and sell to the public, I would be required to sell the fuel using a government inspected fueling facility.  That means a licensed and inspected fuel pump.  At that point I would expect to collect the taxes on behalf of all the government entities that feel entitled.  IF the government should get serious about weaning ourselves from petro based fuels a tax differential could be instituted.  
One thing everyone needs to be aware of is that I still pay fuel taxes for my gas powered car and I need to use petro diesel during the winter months so I still get to pay for the infrastructure.  
I look at it this way - I go to some extra lengths to burn a cleaner less poluting fuel when I can.  The State of Indiana rewards me for my effort.  

[Fla._Deadheader]

Actually, I think the tax is fair enough. We somehow need to get the Wyatt Earps off the Govt dole and get back to reality.

  There are so many taxes on taxes, that, Govt just seems to always need more, WITHOUT ACCOUNTABILITY.

  There is WAAYYYYYYY more Pork involved FOR BIG OIL, so, the little guy doesn't stand a chance.  Google up Blenders  payback. I can't think of what it's actually called. It's the deduction of $1.00 per gallon of Diesel produced by adding 1% Vegoil. BIG OIL is getting stinkin rich(er) from this Boondoggle.   Ever heard the terms B-100 and B-99 ???  the B-99 is the blended stuff. Govt PAYS BIG OIL to add the Veg oil, at the tune of $1.00 per Gallon of Diesel blended. B-100 is Pure Veg Oil.

[Ron Wenrich]

Thinking on Cedarman's point about taxing by the gallon as not being fair, I tend to think it is.  The reason being is those cars with bigger engines are usually on a heavier car.  Heavier cars would put more wear and tear on the roads than a lighter one.  So the gallon tax is probably pretty fair.  I wouldn't want to pay the same rate per mile as the tractor trailers.

Maybe we should have a tax for speed.  Put governors on the cars and trucks, and let people pay more if they want to drive faster.  Your average car or truck that wants to do the speed limit, let them pay their usual registration fee.  If you want to do 10 over, then increase their fees by a couple of 100 bucks/year.  20 over would cost you even more.

[stonebroke]

OWW, for the sake of discussion, lets say you decided you could do better making and selling fuel instead of playing around with wood. :  Should the people you're selling to be exempt from paying taxes, too?

The collection system would indeed be cumbersome if we all had to file an annual fuel tax form.  That's why it is collected at the pump.  How else ya gonna do it?  Toll roads?  I live on a County road that get's an average of 1 car per hour.  Should we put a toll booth at each end of it?  That would be ridiculous, but the road gets maintained, and somebody has to pay for that. 

Now let's look at your pore old Aunt Maudie.  She lives in a little apartment on a very limited income and works as a door greeter at Walmart.  She obviously can't make her own fuel to get to work, and nobody within a hundred miles of here sells renewable fuel, so she has to buy gasoline.  Is it fair to make her pay my taxes for me, Stonebroke?

Now before anybody else gets their trigger tripped ;) ;D  these are just rhetorical questions intended to provoke thoughtful discussion.  I'd really like to see some good ideas on how we can sort out some of the mess we've made for ourselves. :P

DanG

If we are going to use taxes for social engineering than renewable fuels would be on the top of my list. I would not purpose to keep the tax exemption forever but the industry needs a jump start. If no one is selling renewable fuel within 100 miles than I guess that they would not lose too much in taxes. I would much rather have subsidy for americans making fuel here than giving money to overseas interests.

Stonebroke

[Quartlow]

One big problem I see here is you keep talking about road tax, we used to have that in the trucking industry, it was called HUT, highway use tax. We fought long and hard to get rid of it, problem was you had this thick folder with tax stickers and paperwork and a ton of stickers on the outside of the truck. Now when you register a commercial vehicle you pick what states you want licensed in. Those are printed right on your registration. You get one sticker now, your IFTA (International Fuel Tax Agreement). Now you report your fuel taxes to one agency instead of 50.

Don't be so hasty in asking for HUT again.

[Furby]

Don't forget about NY state, they still use HUT. :

[Bill]

Sorry to join this thread late but there's a rant coming on here - let it begin:

Fuel taxes - to be used for construction and maintenance of roads. Doesn't matter whether you live in one end of the state or the other - the roads are there if you need 'em to go see Aunt Bessie or a friend. I kinda like what was said about the lower mpg vehicles being heavier so they cause more wear and tear - so its OK to charge by the gallon. Maybe it'd pay to raise the tax for land barge luxury cars - get the rich folks to ask for decent mileage also ? ( Has the world been going to war for oil since WWII ? - different thread - sorry )

BioFuels - IMHO there should be a personal ( fed and st ) exemption for fuel ( and licensing )  you make and use in you own vehicle - to 500 gallons a quarter . The Fed's should pay to certify diesel vehicles for biodiesel ( not the mfg's ) so we encourage the use of low ( zero ? ) polluting biofuels that also reduce foreign oil use. ( Too bad BIG OIL you've been holding us back too long ) If you resell it you're liable for the tax on all of it.

Taxes - I'm agin 'em - they wanna tax the shirt off my back so I'd vote for rollbacks - they always seem to wanna solve problems by creating new ones. Here's one that's gotten me riled up enough to follow through - letter to the state legislature since the Gov wants to add toll gates on I-80; they're already on the PA Trnpk - what's he thinking  ( Jeff - my apologies if this isn't allowed ):


http://www.legis.state.pa.us/cfdocs/legis/home/find.cfm
( to look up rep's email addresses in PA )

I usually don't contact elected officials but the issue with toll roads has shaken me into action.

If the state needs money for roadway maintenance they should use the mechanism they currently have in place - fuel taxes collected at the pump ( we already need to stop to buy fuel so there is no additional penalty to stop on a toll  road ) . Whether you live in Philadelphia, Pittsburgh or Altoona the taxes go to support roads here in PA.

Creating toll plazas with the delays to collect tickets ( or pass computerized terminals to track travel ) only serves to waste precious oil in an era when our national priority should be to  - reduce - consumption of oil. The delays to pay the toll tickets is evidenced daily with the traffic reports at rush hour - no matter whether at the Philadelphia interchange or elsewhere. A needless waste of scarce ( and expensive ) foreign oil and a taxpayer/voter's free time .

Toll roads on the other hand go to creating bureaucratic jobs and consulting for political ( rewards for loyalty at taxpayer expense ) purposes only - "patronage". There is no valid excuse to perpetuate patronage in this day and age. Leasing toll roads to private industry only adds another layer of bureaucracy ( and "rewards" for politicians supporting it ) and the need to add profits while minimizing expenses - spelled as minimizing maintenance that provides for my family's safety while using the road.

Thank you for your time


Well its been awhile since I've had a good rant - thanks for reading .

[stonebroke]

that was a great rant Bill!!!!!!!


Stonebroke

[Don_Papenburg]

Ron we have the system for taxing the ones who want to go faster, ask my wife , Wisconsin has a tough system cost her $200 to go a little over . but then she had to go faster to make up for the time spent so they could collect . The system still needs some tweeking.

Bill you should check out Illinois tollroads .  You need a electronic transponder or you have to stop at a couple of brandnew manned toll booths with very slow government employees.  Talk about a step backwards ,what did they do with all the unmaned automatic toll booths? The ones that did not require a slow gov employee? 

[DanG]

I don't object to toll roads and bridges, as long as they are primarily for a certain group of people who go to a certain place.  For instance, the immensely expensive bridge that goes to St. George's Island, just south of me, is just for the people who want to bake their brains out or rent one of the cottages for vacation.  I don't feel that I, or the rest of you should have to pay for that.

What I DO object to is that a few states have shanghaied portions of the Interstate Highway System, which we have already paid for, and are charging tolls for us to use.  To me, this is nothing short of highway robbery! 

There is an attitude in some circles that "the Feds" should pay for certain things.  Well, "the Feds" is me and you, folks!  Lets come up with some ways to actually conserve some resources and save some money, not just ways to get somebody else to pay for it.

[Bill]

Don
We've got some fancy "EZPass" electronic toll gates now on the PA Trnpk ( think Interstate -76/276 ) . My objection to them is now they've admitted they eliminated some of the employees and are just going for the $$$$ and they gotta outside firm doing it so they need to factor their expenses and profit in on top of what the state gets. Plus I'm not normally a privacy freak but I kinda object to a system that tracks where my car is - at least I have a weird feeling about some stranger able to track my cars going places - kinda as if someone was following me around (?) - and I'm not that exciting .

DanG
Now I know the Romans used tolls to pay for their roads but I think they were the first. So why we need to go back to 2000 year old technology is beyond me - doesn't seem like something a rational man would do. My objection to toll roads is that I pay road taxes for roads out in the middle of the state that I'll never see  - why should I now have to pay additional taxes for the roads I do use. If they want toll roads for the roads I use then I think I should get back the road tax they collected on gas for the roads in Emporium PA etc .

IMHO - I think that there are roads throughout the state and whether I use them or not ( they're there iffen I need 'em ) my road tax from gas goes to their construction and maintenance - don't need another tax - toll - for the roads I do actually use . Waste of time and oil/gas plus lets too many bureaucrats put their hand in the till so to speak .

Course just my $.02

[Ron Wenrich]

And, if our governor wouldn't have taken $500 million from gas tax receipts and given them for mass transit in Philadelphia and Pittsburgh, there wouldn't be any talk about toll roads on I-80.

Tolls from interstate roads can only be used on that highway.  I don't have any problem with it.  The PA Turnpike is a lot better than most of the interstates in the state.  All because they have tolls, and have always had tolls.

The patronage system they have there is pretty corrupt.  But, so is all the top tier forms of management in the patronage system.  All those legislators that we threw out said they could get better jobs working in the private sector.  Most of them came back to the state teat after they were canned.  Our rep lost his $70,000/year job and accepted one for $35,000/year with the state.  He's still overpaid.   ;)

[Bill]

Ron

FWIW -  Our Gov also just finished a major reconstruction/expansion of the Pa Trnpk for the Phila area to the tune of hundreds and hundreds of millions ( my estimate from checking on the cost per mile of interstate construction times the number of miles they did ). My thought is now the piper is due and the Gov doesn't  want the people to see how much he spent ( gave away ? ) so its to be buried  inside this sale/lease deal he's cooked up.

[OneWithWood]

Better hope your govenor is not talking to our govenor.  Our boy Mitch done sold the Indiana toll road to some Spanish/Australian consortium.  Got 3.5 billion for it and he is still crying for money.  Now he is trying to sell us a new toll road in the southern half of the state and the state lottery is up for sale.  :

[Ron Wenrich]

Our gov talked about selling the lottery, as well.  He's a lame duck, and now he's getting really bold.  He can't be reelected.  Our legislature is walking on egg shells since we threw 20% of them out of office and threw a superior court judge out because he spent too much money on perks.  We really got their attention.

We have just recently got slots in for the purpose reducing property tax.  So far, the gov has given out money for a new arena for the Pittsburgh Penguins (so they wouldn't leave) and I think some sort of stadium money.  Meanwhile, us taxpayers haven't seen a dime.

I figure by next year at this time, we'll be back with our pitchforks and storming the capitol again.   :D