What costs more than the Iraq war?

[fencerowphil (Phil L.)]

Thank YOU, Mortice.

I am most interested in hearing what is on his mind,
as well as hearing his stories.  Why don't you start a thread
sometime and share some of yours?

This thread gets better and better.  Let me take a breath.
There are so many good thoughts in the air right now, I don't
know which one to comment on first!

[WH_Conley]

Ron kinda hit on a nerve about property taxes. The county judge wxwcutive and the magistrates keep bragging that they have manages not to have raised our tax rates. However the property evaluation administrator has bee raising assessed value. The term used that the state mandates the appraised value be "the most a reasonable person" would give for the property. I have a house that I have been trying to sell for 2 years at $40,000. The appraised value was recently raised $49,000. I tried to get her to go into the real estate sales business. They don't have to raise the rates if they keep uping the assessed value. >:(

[Cedarman]

Ron, we did in Indiana what you are talking about in Pa.  Sales tax up from 6 to 7, promises to lower property taxes.  Fund schools from state budget.  Yippee. :( :(

[TexasTimbers]

yeah Ron I get what you are saying. It won't change overnight. But I still believe things only really get done from the grassroots. We cannot directly change federal laws at the local level to be sure, but the sea change that must occur before we change the "lawmakers" up on the hill, that has to start  at the local level and work it's way up IMO. You won't elect a good man from business to the hill. He must work his way up, be held accoiuntable all the way there. It just doesn't happen anymore. We allow them to get corrupted or at least going along to get along, with the respective part rep or dem it don't matter.

That;s another reason whay i say change will never happen as long as these two centers of power, republican and democrat, are allowed to remain unchallenged. It appears to me as if we will continue to allow them to pass the wand of power and control back and forth to each other with impunity.

It takes something big to unite us. The War between the States did it in the end, in a long drawn out way. WWI did it somewhat. The crash of 29 did it, painfully (and in many ways for the worse IMO thanks to some of FDR's state-sovereignty-wrecking policies) WWII did it like nothing else before or since. 9-11 did briefly until the politicians used it for their own ends and now 9-11 has divided us and created a chasm.

Who knows what will be the next coomon enemy. The oil/energy "crisis". It will play a part but the next "big thing" will be the next actual economic collapse. Not one on papaer like '87. A real one. One that takes food off the table. One that empties the Strategic National Fuel Reserve. One that causes riots in the streets, shuts down the trucking industry and causes sever rolling power outages. One that sees uncollected garbage piling up. Stuff like that. ;D

[TexasTimbers]

I better clarify my FDR comments. I am not knocking the man!

[Ron Wenrich]

Cedarman

They approved slots at racetracks here in PA under the context that it would be used to lower property taxes.  First thing they did was to give away the slots licenses for $50,000 instead of holding an auction.  Cost us a ton of money and was simply a gift to election contributors.  I checked the records, so I know that was true.

Then, when the first billion come in, they gave it out in special projects.  I think they built an arena in Pittsburgh so they could play hockey.  85% of the gambling proceeds are supposed to go to property tax relief.

To appease the masses, they have now doled out a real estate tax cut on the second billion.  Needles to say, those in the city got a bigger cut than those in the burbs or the rural countryside.  I think it has something to do with votes, but they say they have some sort of formula.  The county seat gets something like $500/property, while others are getting as low as $55/property in an adjoining town.  Mine is going down $145.

The new buzz is to sell our infrastructure.  The PA turnpike is being put up for lease, just like they did in Indiana.  Money is to go for road repair and for mass transit isn Philladelphia.  Hard to believe that our governor was once a mayor of Philadelphia.   :D

Cities are starting to look at privatizing infrastructure.  Harrisburg is thinking of leasing out their parking garages and parking spots.  Government is just starved for money and can't figure out how to get out from underneath it.

[Cedarman]

Ron, at least casinos are a voluntary tax.

[fencerowphil (Phil L.)]

             "I'm sorry. I really think the root of the problem is us.
              ...It is human nature to become spoiled at the trough.
             Jefferson, Adams, Paine, Henry, they all told us it would happen,
             if we got distracted. Read the Federalist Papers and Common Sense.
             Virually every warning in Common Sense is relevant today as it was
             nearly 24 decades ago. Perhaps even more so. " TexasT

Our founding fathers lived to see the beginning of this process. The end result is the present
political machine dominated by incumbency.  As Ron said, "The other problem at the local
political level is that its mainly run by some type of machine."  That domination carries all
the way up the ladder.

What if average Joes and Janes began to fund a system and work in a system which did this:
              1.  Used the internet to the max to provided factual information
                    on where every candidate stood on issues related to true solutions;
              2.  Campaigned for a system to end the "media drivel" and replace it
                    with a limited system where candidates provided real answers.
              3.  Sponsored prime time television which revealed the real voting record
                    of not candidates only, but every member of congress.  [in spite of low Nielson ratings]



             "Mandates [such as mandates in the area of education] from above
             insulates those legislators and puts the heat on the locals.  The locals
             can do nothing other than to pass the costs onto the consumer.  They are in a bind."  Ron

Yes, and you get even more confused situations.  Often the supposed solutions are untried theories. 
The methods of the past in education (back when we had standing educationally) are directly contradicted.
Teachers seem to spend their time in a) re-education in non-effective methods; b) extreme disciplinary
situations; or c) paperwork demanded by some of the very mandates which Ron mentions.


             "One of the best ways to be charitable is to create a business and hire people."    cedarman

Agreed!  That can be done on a long-term basis, or for a month, a week, or even a day.  It takes a good
bit of work, however, to undo the "entitlement" mentality which indirectly came from our welfare systems.
(I certainly pray that politicians did not knowingly doom many minorities to the brainwashing and negative
attitudes which have resulted, but some may have done so.) 

The solution really is US.   We have already certified and confessed our laziness.   We also know how it goes:
         "Now wait a minute!  That could cut MY benefits."
         "As long as that new insurance will cover what ails me, I don't care who wins!"
         "As long as I can get that easy gubment job and them benefits,  just let me be."
We have been "at the trough" of government.  It shows.  The results are all around us.  Everyone of us can
think of an area in which we would hate to lose "benefits" for either ourselves or a loved one.  Oops, there
we go again, proving our attachment to the very systems and policies which have brought us so far.

Perhaps, if we are so blessed,  the next revolt can be one of grassroots common sense.  Perhaps a third
party is part of the answer, but more so, the answer lies in multitudes of those resolved to act together
bound/joined by, and committed to, common sense solutions!

[TexasTimbers]

"Now wait a minute!  That could cut MY benefits."

This doesn't make much of a point to the discussion, but I thought I would throw it in as a little ray of light. My future SIL came back from Iraq with an incurable disease (no not a STD) and the Army offered him a 100% disability. The mortality rate is low but does exists.

We tend to have little hope for this generation (Cody is 24) and I am no better than anyone about this, maybe worse, but what do you think was his first question? "Will I still be able (allowed) to work?"

When they said "no" he said "I don't want it then." In the end they gave him a certain percentage and told him how much he could earn. I don't know the numbers, my daughter told me once I just didn't dwell on it so don't remember, but he does get a certain % and he now works midnight to 8 a.m. counseling drug and alcoholic patients at our VA Hospital in Bonham.

What is his current state of mind? He is a little disgusted. "Our system is not designed to help them recover. It's designed to 'process and manage' them. They all know how to work it. We have an unacceptable relapse rate and as a counselor I am very limited on how I can help them with the inflexible system."

That's paraphrased, but accurate.

Here is a young man who went and did his duty, was inflicted with a life-changing debilitating disease, has it for life, was encouraged by his mentors/superiors/counselors in the Army/his family/his friends to "take the money you deserve it" and his response was "But I can still work. I am not 100% disabled".

I know my daughter had not told him his future FIL chose that exact same path when he exited the USCG with a service-connected disability, because I never told her my story.  This young man made the exact same choice I did. Ya think he scored points with me?    

Our generation does not necessarily own the corner on work and productivity and a sense of responsibility. I have hope for the younger kids. A fading hope to be sure but one nonetheless. I don't know if any of you know kids like this, but if you do never fail to encourage them, and give them cudos for taking a path less traveled, when that path is an honorable one. The less traveled one usually is.

So like I said I know this isn't eaxctly on point, but the cost of this Iraqi war is just a hair less directly because of Cody. And hopefully indirectly eventually because maybe he can make a difference in an Iraqi vets life that will get that vet off the dole as well.

[fencerowphil (Phil L.)]

Good For you, CODY!

By making that choice he will deepen his enjoyment of life AND
will probably live longer!

Another unindentified quote for you all:
  "For in Him we LIVE and MOVE and have our being."  [emphasis mine]

Cody has chosen to keep living and moving!

[jim king]

This has to be one of the best threads ever.  Living out of the country most of my life I have a different perspective than many but it sure is refreshing to see people talk and discuss like you all are.  A lot of facts have come out here that the vast majority of Americans are not aware of.  Why with 300,000,000 people up there cant you find just one politician to talk like this thread?¿.

[little Bark]

I also have enjoyed reading this thread over my lunch break.  I also live in PA and am getting the same 145.00 so called discount on my property taxes this year.  Ron spoke of a formula used to find out what school districts get diffrent levels of discounts.  I will never under stand this.  I have a neighbor across the street living on SS that is getting the same 145.00 dollar discount.

From what I have read from your posts Ron I think our demographics are pretty simular.  There has been a big movement here localy to change how local goverment does things.  It really came to light this past fall when not even one school board member got re elected.  I am not going to go into the reasons for the change but it all stared with a committy that was fighting for the best education for children.  Last year we saw several long time state legeslators fall because they voted themselves a sizeable pay raise.  I have not yet seen the fruits of that change of power on the state level.

[Ron Wenrich]

I'm about 15 miles up Rt 72 from you.  I'm north of Lebanon where 72 crosses Rt 22.

I thought there was some hope of pulling off more grassroots victories like those that threw out some of the bums.  But, it didn't last.  There is a bill in the Legislature right now that wants to raise pensions for teachers and legislators.  They didn't learn their lesson and are trying to piggyback onto this bill.  Besides, if they pass higher pensions for teachers, that gets kicked back to the local level for funding. 

[thedeeredude]

I thought there was some hope of pulling off more grassroots victories like those that threw out some of the bums.  But, it didn't last.  There is a bill in the Legislature right now that wants to raise pensions for teachers and legislators.  They didn't learn their lesson and are trying to piggyback onto this bill.  Besides, if they pass higher pensions for teachers, that gets kicked back to the local level for funding. 

Did you see the article in Reading Eagle about the farmers property taxes that jumped $20,000 because of a spot assessment?  Yowsers.  Hmmm.......tax and spend or tax less and spend?  Uncle cheesesteak ain't doing much for us.