Building with rough sawed wood.

[SeeSaw]

Don P brings up some good points about safety.  However, I would guess as FDH pointed out that many structures have been built without stamped lumber that have, and will stand the test of time.  Many examples are still standing that were built prior to having any such governing rules. That in itself should be all the proof that is needed.  I have seen much of this so called lumber myself at the box stores and refuse to use it.  Most of it is junk,  plain and simple.  

I guess I cannot grade and stamp lumber legally like they can.  But, as Arky and many others have pointed out here before, I'm able to tell a good board from a bad board.  It appears as though that's more than I can say for some that inspect and stamp graded lumber that is available to the general public in the box stores. This is truly a sad state of affairs IMHO.  I do believe that this kind of thing will not change until enough sheeple  are fed up up and challenge the system.  I personally challenge the local building/ governing body on a regular basis.  I've had much success in doing this.  Just not enough people do it.

[DanG]

BCK, I was just about to reply here when you posted an excellent illustration of my first point.  Dealing with a Building Inspector is a human interaction.  If you approach it as such, instead of as a "me vs Gov't" matter, it will be a lot more pleasant and productive.  The inspector can be your best friend or your worst enemy, and most of the time you get to choose which one you'd rather deal with.  In my County, all of them are ex-tradesmen, and have been on your side of the fence before.  They are knowledgable, but usually are expert in only one field, though they are required to inspect all the trades.  They have a set of rules that their boss requires them to follow, and their job depends on how well they follow it.  The Code is a huge volume and nobody know's it all, but I have found that they will call the office and have someone look up a rule they aren't familiar with, IF you haven't already *pithed them off.  Try to remember that you aren't dealing with your wife here; It is NOT easier to get forgiveness than permission! :D  If he finds something he doesn't like, you could say something like, "Boy, I'm glad you caught that!" instead of chewing him out about it.  Then ask him if he knows an easy fix for it.  If he gets the feeling that you're trying to pull the wool over his eyes, it will be You vs Inspector & Gov't.  If he finds that you are trying to do it right, it will be You & Inspector vs Gov't.  Try to show him that you realize his personal predicament.  He is caught in the middle a dozen times every day, and the slightest hint that you sympathize with his plight will put him on your side immediately.  If you have a major problem with the interpretation of the rules, take a lesson from bck and show them that you've done your homework better than they have.

As far as the lumber is concerned, remember that you are dealing with the BUILDING inspector, not the lumber inspector.  If he see's a stamp, he assumes that somebody has already inspected that, so he doesn't have to, just like he doesn't have to re-inspect the foundation every time he comes out.  If you buy cheap lumber from a box store, you should expect to find a lot of culls in the stack.  You'll probably save money in the long run if you buy from a reputable lumber yard.  I was originally planning to cut all my own framing, but practicality ruled out in the end.  It just wasn't worth the hassle of getting it approved, not to speak of all the work involved in getting it all sized after drying. :

[Toolman]

I built my house in NC 12 years ago. The building inspectors said that I couldnt use lumber that wasnt grade stamped ( and were real jerks about it ).   My uncle was friends with the top inspector for the state and he sent me a highlighted copy of the code that said if you build the house on the same land the wood was cut from it did not have to be grade stamped. I went back and asked them if it was a county ordanince or a state law that said I couldnt use my wood, they got mad and loud and told me it was a state law. So I gave them the paper , they called the # on the paper and during the rest of my dealings with them they were very nice  ;)

HOW DARE YOU QUESTION SOMEONE IN AUTHORITY. These arrogant clowns are'nt used to people questioning them and challenging them. It's amazing how different these people act when they know you will check and challenge them. Way to go!
We had a zoning inspector in our twp. who apparantly was picked on in school. This guy walked and talked as if you were just a nobody. I attended a twp. zoning hearing regarding a variance  and fell out my chair with laughter when a resident told our inspector that he was'nt as mad at him as he was at the kid who left him out of his hallway locker back in school.

[SeeSaw]

Toolman,

I've had the exact same kind of dealings with our local inspectors and government in general.  That is why I challenge them on practically everything.  IMHO they've run AMOK and they treat us little folk like we're a bunch of idiots.  They think they have ultimate power over their dominion.  Problem is, many of these positions are appointed and not elected. Case in point: The head of the zoning board is a corrupt individual that was appointed about 25 years ago. You want to split a lot as an individual homeowner or something like that, forget it.  Now, on the other hand, If you're a builder and use his personal heating and cooling company for your hvac needs in your new home. Well, then things are different. You can get whatever you want.  Just as FDH said, the envelopes do go through the truck window.  We can't get rid of the SOB.  It would be nice if you could deal with them as DanG said, and I would highly encourage anyone to do so if you can.  However, in my area I can't really use the diplomatic approach anymore.  We've plowed that ground too many times and it was always them telling me what I coukld and could not do.  They know me on a first name basis.  Not in a good way either.

[Corley5]

It is NOT easier to get forgiveness than permission! :D  

;D ;D ;D ;D

I'm about to have a go round with my local building fellas.  I'm going to inquire about the current regs regarding rough sawn here.  It used to be you had to go a size larger than the plans called for.  2X6 instead of 2X4 etc.  But i've heard it's changed and they're real sticky about it now.  This house was built with green rough sawn big tooth aspen and is still standing 14 years later  ;D ;D

[Woodchuck53]

This is what I like about the Forum, I now have all kind of back ground and ways to approach these guys next week in town. But I must confess I slipped up a couple years ago and had some 8' 2x6's on the trailer when I went to town. The wife had found some tile she liked at that store you can't get help at. I went and bought it, took me about 2 hours with all the other things I was doing and then met her for lunch. Time I got home I had 3 messages on the machine to call them back they were interested in where I got that rough sawed lumber. I plum forgot that I had my last name and phone number written on one of them unstamped boards. Have a nice day. Chuck

[Don P]

AHHhhh what's the use   Noone cares.

Pretty much the way I feel on the subject 

[tcsmpsi]

We could fix a lot of this if people would just get out and vote.  Find someone who has common sense and get him to run.  Then vote him in.   It really works.  It works for tax assessors, city councilmen and all the bureaucrats who work for them.  It takes time, but it won't happen if people don't get off of their duff, vote their heart and make their Government do what they expect of them.

If you don't like the building codes, get them rewritten.  It takes a volume of citizens on a mission sometimes.

Unfortunately, Tom, the system has become such, that anyone with common sense is highly unlikely to have any desire to become part of the political scrapple.
Fundamentally, only those who are adept at having their way pointed for them, create backing and success.  Without being that way, it is like walking into a room full of toxic gas, without a gas mask.

[Don P]

In the grand scheme of things this is not a big enough issue to make or break a canidate. I know this for a fact around here. Our rep got one fewer vote.

SPIB Grade books can be bought here for those interested
http://www.spib.org/publicationslisting.shtml?/publications.

NeLMA grade publications are here for download, section 5 is the most pertinent;
http://www.nelma.org/index.php?module=StaticContent&func=display&scid=10

I was given permission to post any of the NGR manual, its kind of bulky but if there are ever specific questions I'd be happy to.

On a related off topic, I just got my copy of the new Standard on the Design and Construction of Log Structures. I did participate in the public commentary it is now a code referenced document. With shipping $33. 50 pages... yup the code folks are non profit  :

[maple flats]

In NY State you CAN use unstamped lumber as the building codes are written. All that you need is for the sawyer to sign a statement that the lumber is number 2 or better. There is no requirement for formal training for the sawyer.
I have house plans drawn and stamped by a professional engineer specifying rough cut sawyer certified lumber. And I am the sawyer. As I figure it I can look at what they offer at the big box stores and if it isn't better than that I will burn it in my evaporator when making maple syrup.

[Toolman]

Yum Yum, love that maple syrup.

[jdtuttle]

OUCH,
I know I will get chewed up on this but I need to put my 2 cents in.
I'm one of them thar code guys you have been refering to as %&#@ & then some. I came from the trades and agree with some of the issues with code interpretations by officials. But I can also say I have seen home owners build roofs with 2x4's 2' OC spanning 12'. Wiring I wouldn't dare turn on & plumbing that tries to flow uphill with no vents. We are a reactive society & everytime something happens we create a new rule, law or regulation to prevent another tragedy from occuring. I also admit I had issues with my predecessor while I was building my house. The guy was telling me about improper loads & didn't know what he was talking about.
DanG had it right when dealing with inspectors. We are people too and shouldn't be judged as a group. I'm not writing because my feelings were hurt. I've had my life threatened several times & my hide is pretty tough now.
jim

[DanG]

Well, I'm glad I ain't the one that pithed off the building inspector! :D :D :D  I'm glad you chimed in, Jim.  It's great to know that we have someone here that is on "the other side."  You could probably help to clear up a lot of code questions.

Did ya ever notice how some folks seem to have trouble with every human interaction they have?  The ones I know can't even go to Walmart without getting ticked off about something.  They ALWAYS seem to think that everybody else is the butthole! : :D

[SeeSaw]

Jim,

I'm glad you chimed in too.  I don't think they're all bad and should be put in the same category with a broadbrush approach.  However, it seems to me that some of them, (mostly the younger ones with something to prove), are on some kind of a power trip. Other people in my area feel the same way too.  Never, had any trouble with the older fella he was a pretty straight shooter and made sense too. He understood working with folks.  Especially in situations when you're doing a re-model and certain things can't be changed. When he retired he was replaced by a rather young fella with very little experience and a hard nose approach to boot. Out to change the world I guess?  Anyway, I tried very hard to reason with him on several issues but it was his way or the highway on everything.  So, I sent him down that highway and told him not to come back.  Ever!  Haven't had a problem since.  Of course now, I just do what I need to do and don't involve them because he's still there.

SeeSaw

[stonebroke]

Jim

I wonder, Did you ever reject someone because he was using rough cut lumber?

Stonebroke

[jdtuttle]

Stonebroke,
Let's see, I have a woodmizer lt40hd. Been around lumber most of my life. Make moulding and do a little design work. All of which I don't do in the Town I work in.
As far as rejecting someone for using rough cut lumber I would have to say an emphatic no. But, I have rejected framing members being used as structural components. (large knots in the middle of the span). My only issue using roughcut in homes is making sure the lumber has been dried to the proper moisture levels. Thats for conventional framing. Log homes & timberframes are a different story.
Seesaw,
I know what you mean about over zealous, inexperienced inspectors. I have one local contractor who almost shot an inspector from the town next to us. The guy showed up at his job site flashing his badge and yelling "cease & decist" (I think that means stop what your doing). Anyway It still makes me laugh a little when I think about this bozo. 

[TW]

The Finnish building code declares that timber which is sorted on site by a carpenter is considered equal to grade T24. This is a low grade but it is cheaper to overbuild a little than to get the wood stamped. In my oppinion this is a fair compromize.

Lets see what troble that "dang" new Eurocode will cause us......

[WH_Conley]

AWW, c'mon JD, Tell us what you really think.  :D :D

I have built enough stuff and it has been interementially(sp) enough that I know that I can not keep up with codes.

Best thing to do is sit down with the local inspecter ahead of tme and talk things out, see what you need.