WWII Mystery--Need some good detectives

[Texas Ranger]

After a close look at the photos, the WVA is an acceptance stamp by Ordnance.

[Faron]

Hey, TR, The mark is in the right place for the acceptance stamp.  I have been looking, but haven't found that mark listed.  Any ideas?

[Texas Ranger]

at a loss, for the moment, cannot find my book on such items.

This is as close as I can get, off hand.

   

[Texas Ranger]

On second inspection, possibly this, on a well worn stock.

[Jeff]

Yep, send away. I can post the better photo.

[fuzzybear]

I did find this U.S. Army Armory that fits the WVA stamp. Watervliet Arsenal in Watervliet NY. 
  Their web page is    http://www.wva.army.mil/

They manufacture big guns there but may have produced rifles during the war. They could probably help you find out the history of the rifle from it's serial #. Sometimes the history of the rifle is just as interesting as the men that held it.  This is one rifles history that I would love to know.

[Jeff]

Here are a couple links to larger versions of the photos.

https://forestryforum.com/images/cleo_1.jpg

https://forestryforum.com/images/cleo_2.jpg

[Faron]

The family believes that Cleo did not do the printing on the rifle. They say the printing is far too uniform and neat.  However, it is still possible that someone in an idle moment printed it for him.  Anyone have a clue how common it might be for a WWII soldier to put his name on a rifle? I also have seen a couple of photographs of A
Company in action about forty miles from Liege on February 25, 1945on an internet site.  As a company consisted of from 62 to 180 men, I am sure Cleo was in the column of men showed marching.

Thanks, Jeff.

http://www.history.army.mil/matrix/1ID/1ID-Photos.htm

[Tom]

From the Army perspective, soldiers were discouraged from carrying anything that could identify them with their unit. They still did.  Identification with a combat unit could tell the enemy a lot about the movement of unit and strategic plans of an attack.

Knowledge of families, friends or other personal information could be used in psychological  warfare or to help in breaking them down if captured.

Still, most soldiers will write their name on anything, including their rifle.  It would be difficult to know who wrote the name.  It definitely would not have been an action by an armorer, but might have been done by the family.  Chances are very good it is in Cleo's hand. 

Somewhere, in the bowels of the the Army is a paper identifying the serial number of that weapon to having been issued to Cleo, or the soldier of original ownership.  Lots of luck ever finding it.

[Texas Ranger]

OK, definitely not arsenal markings.  Thanks for the pics, jeff, I could not pull them up that well.

[Faron]

 



This pipe was given to Cleo by someone in Europe.


Does anyone know where I might find a roster of the 1st infantry division during WWII?  We need to figure out if there was more than one Cleo Lee in that place at that time.

Thanks for the pics. I am going to print and send them to Mr ortegat. I've phone Mr Ortegat yesterday, he tell me that he has good reminder about the soldier he met in 44 or 45. So i think that there is some chance that he can check and tell us if the soldier was your father.
Mr Ortegat tell me that his parents had a disc shop at the time of the war. The soldier cames to the shop, to eat, wash himself... He tell me that the soldier has given the rifle. The rifle is in Ortegat family since this date.
The disc shop has been destroyed pos war to make new building. Mr ortegat has an old photo of the building. If the soldier is your father, i'll ask Mr Ortegat to scan the photo.
In belgium, last year, people were obliged to declare there rifle or has to give them to the police. It seems that Mr Ortegat was frightened to kept the rifle. A person tell me that a people has an old rifle and that the people want to leave it at the police. As a collector i do the legal things to legaly keep the rifle Mr ortegat given it to me. The rifle is in my collection since june 2007. The date of born of Mr ortegat is 04/04/1926.

This is part of an E-Mail from Mr. Depairon.  I am thinking a disc shop is a record store? 


Cleo was seriously wounded, shot through the hip, at the end of Feb. or beginning of March, 1945.  He arrived in Europe January 14,1945, so had been in combat 6 weeks or so. That would put him in the end of fighting in the Battle of the Bulge. He did mention being in a cast for a time.  He left Europe in June 1946 and received an occupation medal. We really don't know where he was after he was wounded.  I am wondering if perhaps he met this family during the time after he was wounded, during the occupation.

I also noted that he earned two bronze stars.  I figured one was pretty much an achievement.   During my research I found that a WWII medic (now deceased) who used to tell me about his experiences received 6 bronze stars.   He told me he never in his wildest dreams expected to get out of there alive. I can no longer remember the figures, but only a small percent  of the medics he worked with survived the war.

[Faron]

Hello,

I've receved news about Mr Ortegat. The picture of your father is not the soldier that Mr ortegat met in 1944. Il¨t'is a bad news for you and for me too... There is also the possibility that the rifle was given to the soldier after it has been engraved. During the war some rifle which were defect were given to gunsmith for repair. After repair, the rifle was oftten given to other new soldier.... Mr Ortegat tell me that the soldier was not a king of war, he hide himself to escape to go to the front.....
I am going to search again about a cleo lee of west-virginia. I'll send you news about my search.
I would like to thank you for all your mail and disponibilty to reply to my questions...
Have a nice week.

Greetings from belgium.

Depairon Alain.


My friends received this from Belgium.  I would say we can not rule out Cleo possessed the rifle before this soldier, possibly losing it when he was wounded.  It is also possible there was a Cleo Lee from West Virginia in the same area, though we haven't found him yet.  It has been a very interesting search, and I thank you all for your help.

[Faron]

I just finished reading "Band of Brothers"  I recommend it highly.  It made me think of this little search some of you folks helped me with a couple years ago.  As far as I know, things still stand as they were when we left them.  Mr. Ortegat says Cleo is definitely not the man who gave the rifle to his family, and spent time with them. 
Cleo arrived in the ETO January 15th, 1945 according to his discharge papers.  They list him as wounded 7 March 1945, though the family says 27 February.  I wonder if the 7 March date might be when he arrived at a hospital, perhaps in England.

I have been messing around with this a little more.  Anyone know where I could find a detailed history of  Company A 16th Infantry  Regiment 1st Division,  The Big Red One?  I would like to write up a little history of what that company did on a daily basis during the time Cleo was there, places, dates, that sort of thing.  I have found a few pictures on the net of A company in action  during those weeks.

[Meadows Miller]

Gday

this has been a great thread farron and i dont think its over yet mate   ;) ;D
I had a great uncle "Uncle Tom" who passed only 3 months ago  :( :'( :'( who served in the pacific on a mine sweeper for 6 years defusing and setting fields in WWII   the vetts from the RSL that attended his funeral said that he was one of a kind and had been held in High regard buy many as a Man who got a hard job done with no fuss and a cool head in tight situations  ;) and im proud to have been able to share alot of time with him and to have been able  listen to his storys   ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

ill share a couple of the following with you  ;)


There was once when his and afew other US navy ships entered a free sett magnetic  mine field where he took charge and got up ontop of the bridge if the friggit with a rifle and picked them of as they went along  his words about this that stick with me are that I knew we where stuffed if I missed even one of the bloody things  ;) :D ;D

another time they where setting fixed magnetic mine field in Newcastle harbour they a where almost finnished and where all on shore when they fired up the smelters at The BHP Steel plant after a breakdon that had shutdown production on thier largest furace all hell broke loose and the whole minefield went up within a couple of min  :D :D :D He said we went to layn only a few at a time after that as it took him alittle while to find a freqency that didnt go of when the smelter started up and would also work with ships and subs  ;)

The numerous times he told me of the Yanks calling Us Scrappers because the RAN  was on a tight buget for spares meaning they had no buget for getting new parts  ;) and you had to fix the bloody thing with what you had to keep the show on the road  ;)  ;D and they would do raids on the US dumps to get spares they even upgraded a couple of motors on their sweepers to having twice the Hp He said those yanks threw out some bloody good stuff   just because it was makn a funny noise  ;) :D ;D ;D ;D 8) 8)Uncle tom just said we took two of everything and made somthing decent outa it   ;) :D :D :D ;D ;D 8)

Ill Miss Uncle Tom

Farron Ive also read and watched Band of Brothers and im also looking forward to Pacific coming out this year Mate  ;) ;D ;D 8) 8)

Regards Chris

[Faron]

Chris, I will bet the older you get, the more you will value the time you spent with your Uncle, and the stories he told you.  Can you just imagine the consternation when all those mines went off at one time?    :D