Eastern Red Ceadar for poles of pole barn...?

[mervin]

Hi, I am planning to build a pole barn on my parents newly acquired farm in Northern Kentucky.   I've built several poles barns using standard 4x4 treated poles, but this farm is chalked full of Eastern Red Cedars.  I took a quick walk around the farm and located plenty of trees for logs.  I was able to locate enough trees that are 10-12in dbh from which I could easily get 16ft poles. 

My questions are concerning the amount of time needed to dry the poles.  They are still standing live now and we would like to get a barn up to store equipment before next winter.  If we cut them now and put them in a dry barn would they be ready for use late summer/early fall this year?  I suspect drying will take longer, but what are implications of using partly dried poles?

Also I have read to debark and finish the poles, and to coat the end to be placed in the ground with a wax.  Should this step be completed after drying?  Or remove bark beforehand, then finish and add the wax after drying?

Thanks for any tips in advance.  Hopefully this idea works, but maybe not.  I've seen a few barns in the area constructed with ERC poles and I like the look, and the idea of using locally grow lumber.  Can anyone recommend relevant literature on the subject?  Thanks

[Thehardway]

Mervin,

I'm not familiar with the term "Northern Red Cedar".  This might be a local term.  Can you give us some better identification or a description?  I would guess you are actually referring to Eastern Red Cedar  Juniperus Virginiana which is common here in Virginia  and commonly referred to as ERC on some of the boards.  It is actually a Juniper rather than a cedar.  The sapwood of ERC has virtually no rot/insect resistance .  If it is left on the poles and placed in the ground it will quickly deteriorate and leave you with loose and weak poles.  Heartwood is very durable above ground and in water but Im not sure about its use for poles in a pole barn.  I have used it for fenceposts and it hasn't lasted real well.  It lasts real well though for rails.

[ARKANSAWYER]

  We use Eastern Red Cedar all the time for post of barns and sheds.  The cedar dries very fast.  You should remove most of the sap wood that goes into the ground.  You can seal the ends with roof tar or charr the ends over a fire.  They do best if you just pack crushed stone around the post as it allows the water to wick away.  Concrete seems to hold water around the post.   Every year we saw lots of post were we just make a flat face or two flat faces so they can nail the bands on the sides and they put the post in the ground.  My GrandPa and I put some fence post up 40 years ago and they are still holding cattle in today so they can last.

[mervin]

Thanks guys.  Sorry for the confusion on my part.  I was referring to eastern red cedar, Juniperus virginiana.

[scsmith42]

  We use Eastern Red Cedar all the time for post of barns and sheds.  The cedar dries very fast.  You should remove most of the sap wood that goes into the ground.  You can seal the ends with roof tar or charr the ends over a fire.  They do best if you just pack crushed stone around the post as it allows the water to wick away.  Concrete seems to hold water around the post.   Every year we saw lots of post were we just make a flat face or two flat faces so they can nail the bands on the sides and they put the post in the ground.  My GrandPa and I put some fence post up 40 years ago and they are still holding cattle in today so they can last.

+1.  Don't concrete them in place and remove the sap wood.  They will last a long time.  If you are concerned with uplift resistance, drill some holes in the bottom 12" of the pole and drive some rebar pieces into the holes, leaving several inches to protrude outside.  After you place the post in the hole, pour a concrete collar around the bottom foot or so of the post.

[Bibbyman]

We used ERC for the posts in our sawshed.  Sawed them out 6x6.  I see no reason to worry about drying them.  Cedar is pretty dry before you even cut them and it don't srink or twist.





We used the "saw and nail" method of constructon.  Here is a shed extention we built a couple of years back with cedar posts and sycamore framing lumber.  Both were fresh off the mill.  The sycamore dries in place.  Works for us.

[fishpharmer]

Mervin, welcome to Forestry Forum.  Are you planning on a sawmill purchase? 

[Cedarman]

Plant your poles deep.  Never put concrete around the bottom.  You can  auger a big hole if you like and pour some concrete to make a big pad for the pole to sit on.  Peel the post to at least 2 feet above ground level.  If you like peel the whole post.  This will prevent insects from getting into the sapwood.  It won't prevent bees from boring holes.  Solitary bees love ERC in our area.  Pour pea gravel around the post.  It allows water to drain away and will keep the post anchored well.  Sapwood will rot to about a foot below and 6" above ground level.  It will not above 6" above ground level unless kept continually wet. 
Use trees that have minimal sapwood if you can find them.
You do not need to dry the poles.  They will not warp or bend or shrink.
Peel immediately upon cutting as the sap will dry and turn to glue and it will be more than a year before the bark will loosen up to make them peel easily.  A high powered pressure washer will work just fine.

I have a shed originally a tobacco barn, then hay shed and now a lumber storage building.  It is 21 feet tall in front and 16 feet tall in back.  45' x 90 feet.  I have poles spaced 12' x 11' .  I built it this way in 1979 to hold about 5 acres of tobacco.  Insurance company didn't like the looks, but hurricane Hugo didn't budge it while other barns in the area took a hit.

Built this before I had a WM.  Now I would give each face a lick and a promise with the mill.

[jmmy6767]

What about a pier out of concrete coming above ground and then using some kind of anchor....?  Or is it better to sink the posts?  I would also like to use cedar poles, but the ground has a lot of clay,  poor drainage.

[Don K]

Ding, Ding,, The light bulb just went off. I was just grousing the other day about the cost of PT 6X6's to use for the piers on my woodshop. Heck, I have ERC laying around and can cut all the 6X6's I need. Thanks guys for making me think. I gotta start using this noggin for something more than a hat rack.   :D :D :D

Don