Processing a stump

[lowpolyjoe]

Hey again.

I dug the stump of my fallen Basswood out of the ground.  I was thinking of cutting a few slabs out of it to use for small end-tables or something.  But I brought that up in another forum and i got a comment that drying a slab is difficult / impossible without chemical treatment to slow drying and prevent cracking.  How much truth is there in that?  I imagine if i did make table tops the slabs might be on the order of 1" thick.

I'm also kind of curious if there is a significant difference in characteristics of wood cut from a stump compared to the rest of the tree.

Thanks,
Joe

[beenthere]

Even if they crack or check while drying, you might like the end result. No better way to find out than to give it a try and see what happens. Likely no one can predict exactly what will happen. Show us some pics before and after.

[lowpolyjoe]

Yeah i'll definitely cut a few slabs and see what happens.  Just curious what the pro's had to say on the matter.

Thanks,
Joe

[Tree Feller]

Hey again.

I dug the stump of my fallen Basswood out of the ground.  I was thinking of cutting a few slabs out of it to use for small end-tables or something.  But I brought that up in another forum and i got a comment that drying a slab is difficult / impossible without chemical treatment to slow drying and prevent cracking.  How much truth is there in that?  I imagine if i did make table tops the slabs might be on the order of 1" thick.

I'm also kind of curious if there is a significant difference in characteristics of wood cut from a stump compared to the rest of the tree.

Thanks,
Joe

Were they talking about drying cookies?...crossectional slices? Those are hard to almost impossible to dry without cracking but a horizontal-grain slab shouldn't be that hard. You can certainly dry it slowly just by sealing the end-grain well and placing it in a cool place with not much air flow.  All it takes is patience.

[lowpolyjoe]

Oh - yeah i think i'm using the wrong terms.   :-[

I don't know why i thought i could just say 'slab' and everyone would know what i'm picturing in my head ?   

I looked through the Extras->Dictionary and my use of 'slab' was incorrect.   Sorry about that.  I can't find 'cookie(s)' in there (should it be added?) , but that's what i'm talking about.  Cutting a thin cross sectional slice of the trunk.  I thought it might be a nice looking tabletop. 

Sounds like it's unlikely to survive the drying process.   Might cut a few anyway, just to see what happens.   

Thanks for pointing out the mixup Tree Feller

[beenthere]

Might cut a few anyway, just to see what happens.

That's the spirit.... 8)

[breederman]

It will crack from the center out but only in one spot. Cut them thick and use them. I
have made a few tables and stools. Just leave the cracks or fill them in.

[reride82]

I have seen where the cracks can be filled with an epoxy/sawdust mix and you can barely see the crack. Maybe give it a try on one.

[Den Socling]

Jim has in his book details for drying cookies. If I have time tomorrow, I'll put it in his thread.

[Tree Feller]

I've never tried it but I've read that soaking the cookie with PEG (polyethlyene glycol) will let it dry without cracking. Might be worth a try on a couple just to see if it works. I've also heard of quartering the cookie, letting it dry and then gluing the quarters back together.

I wonder if one could slice a very thin cookie...<1/4" thick, dry it and then veneer it to a stable substrate like MDF without it cracking? The edges would also have to be veneered as well as the underside but it might work. I might even try it myself.   

[lowpolyjoe]

All great info, thanks guys.

Filling in any cracks with something after drying was what i kind of figured on trying.  Who knows how big the split(s) will be but i could get lucky.

I like the idea of quartering it and then gluing it back together after it dries.  Wonder what would have the thinnest kerf to preserve the pattern the best?  Maybe a bandsaw?  Sadly i don't have one  :'(

I think that chemical comment is what was mentioned in the other forum i was on.

I like the veneer idea - i'm actually an MDF + Veneer guy since i build mostly home theatre speakers and MDF is one of the preferred materials.  Wonder how thin a slice i could cut freehand with a chainsaw.  Maybe this weekend i'll find out  ;D

[DDobbs]

You can use DNA (denatured alcohol) works real well help move the water out of the wood.
  You could use a trash bag pour some DNA in with the wood in the bag. Some guys soak there wood in it I just use enough to keep it wet a few days in the bag. An mine dries just as quick as the others.

[jimF]

There are four methods I know of.  The two already mentioned PEG and alcohol along with salt and progressively increasing the drying amount.  The reason cross-sectional disks are difficult to dry is that wood shrinkage more tangentially than radially, approximately twice the amount.  And shrinkage occurs because the volume is decreased from the loss of water.  The first two methods attempts to reduce the amount of shrinkage.  When using PEG (Poly ethylene glycol) you try to substitute water with PEG so that there is no reduced volume.  The down sides of PEG is that it is waxy, therefore slippery.  Ethylene glycol is antifreezer used in cars and is poisonous to pets. PEG is also used for medicinal purposes.  The only difference between the three products is how long the polymer chain is ( how many ethylene glycol molecules are combined to make the molecular chain) and purity.  If you have any intestinal problems I would stay away from eating anything that has been served in containers or utensils treated with PEG.

By soaking wood in alcohol you substitute the water with alcohol.  And then allow the alcohol to evaporate.  The reason the amount of shrinkage is reduced is that alcohol has a lower surface tension than water and therefore a lower force pulls the wood fiber together as the alcohol dries off.  Because the wood fibers are not drawn together as much the resulting product is lighter in color.  Similar to the reason that polar bear fur appears to be white and paper that has drops of oil or water on it appears to be darker.

The salt treatment causes the wood to retain water longer, thereby slowing the drying down.  The down side of this treatment is that it retains the salt and may cause corrosion if the wood comes in contact with metal.  And the wood ends up with a higher EMC.

The fourth method is a sequential step process of removing the amount of covering to increase the area of exposure to air.  This ultilize the fact that wood grow in such a way that the outer surface of the log is in compression and the center is in tension.  By allowing the outer area to dry first, the compression is reduced and becomes a compression zone reducing the tendency for the center to check.  There is no problems with the final product with this procedure.  The procedure does require more monitoring though.

The specifics steps to these methods can be found in the book among other places.

[beenthere]

ultilize the fact that wood grow in such a way that the outer surface of the log is in compression and the center is in tension.

Or is it the other way around?
I thought when stress in a log is relieved, the outer wood pulls in and the inner pushes out. Makes the banana peel look to opening slabs.  Tension in growth layers build as the tree gets older causing compression in the center.

[lowpolyjoe]

Wow Jim - that's some explanation  about the drying techniques  :P.  Thanks.

I was in the yard today but couldn't work on the stump - it's a lot dirtier than i remembered.  My power washer gave out when i was trying to clean it a while back and apparently i didn't get it as clean as i thought. 

I did cut a few slices off the bottom of the lowest part of the bottom trunk log where the diameter started to increase to meet the stump.  This new micro-lite bar/chain i'm running cuts so fast i made like 10 cuts just for fun  :D    I didn't have a very good setup so the cuts weren't the greatest.  Couldn't try the veneer idea... most cuts were 1/2" - 1".  I saved 4 of the best pieces (straightest with most consistent thickness) and i'll see about trying to dry them for fun.   I'm not going to use any chemicals.  I might try the partial coverage technique... or maybe just let them split and then see how well i can repair them.

[jimF]

beenthere,
The direction concerned with in the cross-section drying are transversal growth stresses.  The outer cells are in compression  in a green log.

[shelbycharger400]

2 to 2 1/4 thick cross sectional!  some warpage will occur,  at one inch thick they have a higher chance of excessive warpage. Lots of stress in the root.

[lowpolyjoe]

Thanks for the tip.  Maybe I'll cut some more today a bit thicker. 

  I just tore down my cutting table and I'm gonna build another setup to try to get the best out of my one remaining piece of the trunk.   

This little project has gotten out of hand :D

[beenthere]

Sure would like to see some pics of your efforts, and your cutting table.  8)

[lowpolyjoe]

Still can't work on the stump till i can somehow clean it better.  Don't think i have any pics of the stump or the cross sections i cut yesterday.

I may have over sold it by calling it a cutting table  :-[   I think i posted this pic in another thread.  It was a garden enclosure that i cut down for use as a platform for setting up the logs for processing with the chainsaw.   



Turned out to be a bad idea to raise the logs - it's best if they're closer to ground level for the beam machine.   I built a ground-sitting jig today and cut some more boards.  I don't have any pics of the new setup.  I tried to film it but i have to go through it and see how the footage looks.  If it's ok i'll post some and leave a link here.

It's funny... i think the first day i was using the Beam Machine on that raised table i cut my best boards.  Must have been beginner's luck because i'd say everything i've cut since then is worse.

[lowpolyjoe]

Just snapped some pics while out with the dogs... a bit dark out there but you get the idea.  Just threw this thing together this afternoon.  Simple and at ground-level.  A lot safer than climing on that ridiculous table i was using before.

[lowpolyjoe]

use of the table....   

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yl51X3OLask&feature=youtu.be

[beenthere]

joe
Good on the video.
I would suggest that the chain you were using on the saw was quite dull and may contribute to your frustration with straightness of the cut. A sharp chain on a saw would steadily walk right through that basswood and you would not need to crank it back and forth to find an edge of wood to force the teeth through.
Don't mean to be critical, but am sure you are looking for the way to make it easier and to get straighter cuts.
Looks like some "tough on the back" work to get that log jerked up the skid rails, but read where you are working now closer to the ground and don't need as much lift.

[Nomad]

     Glad to hear you rigged something closer to the ground.  Using that table looks like a formula for disaster to me.  Not to mention adding a lot to the workload and frustration level.
     I agree with beenthere; I think your chain looks dull too.

[lowpolyjoe]

Beenthere- youre right, rocking the saw made it impossible to get a straight cut.  A few times I ran without rocking and the cuts were better but it was harder on the back having to push that poor cutting saw through the wood.

That was the stock chain and I had a hard time keeping it cutting well.  Since then I've switched to another bar and chain and the difference is night and day.

The table was a terrible idea for sure.  Even tho most of my boards came out crooked and ugly, i count the project a win because even tho i did a lot of stupid stuff, i didnt get hurt. Looking back, that's a small miracle in itself

Definitely sore after spending a day of work on that setup.  Glad it's gone