Beech sprouts and other rants

[petefrom bearswamp]

The property I am part owner of with 40 others is a 3800 acre tract north of Long Lake NY in the Adirondacks.
Starting in 2004 my son and I (we are both foresters) started a program of checkerboard 5 acre seed tree plots on about 100 to 150 acres.
We marked all of the "leave" trees and the contractor cut the rest, mostly Beech.
This program wet on thru 2005 when we went to a single tree and group selection method.
In the seed tree plots the Beech has sprouted very badly and even tho the deer population is very sparse the desirable species of Red and Sugar maples get browsed.
To date both methods we have used  have failed miserably.
Red maple stump sprouts have been mowed off by deer and Sugar maple reproduction is virtually non-existent.
In addition to the Beech sprouts some areas have come in in what appears to be an inedible grass as well as raspberry and blackberry patches.
I tried seeding some landings and skid roads with a whitetail preferred grass mix which also failed, probably due to inhospitable climate and very poor soil.
Lesson learned, sell when we have a strong low grade market and wait 100 yrs or so to see what type of forest we have.
I have often thought that it would be great if foresters lived as long as Methuselah.

[KBforester]

I used to work in the Northern ADKs, where the deer population wasn't that bad, but visited some of the places that were bad. I have never seen anything more scary. 10 year old shelter woods and clear cuts with nothing growing under them, or just beech growing under them. If it were my land, I would not cut one stick until the deer population was under control (maybe never). I would rather have all my standing timber die of old age before converting it to a beech thicket.

Have you guys looked into getting special doe permits? The landowner I used to work for did, but the hunting lease holders refused to fill them. As a result there were some pretty happy foresters with freezers filled to the brim.

[Redbark]

This webinar from Cornell was of help to me.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQGOQKcG1UU

[petefrom bearswamp]

doe permits will not work for this property.
The preponderance of members are old school "do not shoot a doe under any circumstances" fellows.
A point to make is that this is primarily a deer hunting and fishing outfit so timber production is secondary.
When we first got the property in 1985, the buck take was 8 to 10 per year.
This continued for several years with a few trophy bucks taken.
The former owner kept the timber rights and high graded most of the property finishing in 1989.
He did however stay out of the stands very heavy to beech.
Buck take remained acceptable for probably 10 to 12 years.
to illustrate the deer management problem and reduced take there are 3 people in my camp, Myself, my son and my partner.
We have been the most successful camp on the property (no thanks to me).
Our take from 1987 when we obtained membership to date we have taken 18 bucks and 2 bear.
The last buck taken was in 2008 6 seasons ago.
The deer population is miniscule.
BUT the few that remain seem to be able to sniff out the desirable species which admittedly are  not very well stocked.
Most of the members like the beech as it produces a lot of mast about every 3 years and the deer flock in relatively speaking.
Thanks for the video I will take the time to view the whole thig when I have some time.
I am familiar with Dr Smallidge as well as Dr Nyland who I have known since 1963 and several of the folks mentioned in the video.
It seems to me that the only way would be a very intensive program involving stump treatment and foliage treatment after sprouting.
This of course is cost prohibitive for our partnership.
Pete

[SwampDonkey]

I've seen firewood lots with mixed hardwood of maple, beech, yellow birch regenerate mostly to beech up here. And beech has no life because of the beech bark disease. But it sure takes over if there just a light harvest with lots of shade still left. Obviously this land has an alternative objective for it besides growing timber and nothing wrong with that at all. It's just a pain when other ideas don't work out even if they are secondary to the management of the land. See up north here it is timber first, all you have to do is look around. A deer can't winter in a  clear cut or even a balsam fir thicket when there is 4 feet of snow in the woods. It's good to see a mix of other objectives.  And for us in NB, most people don't know it, but deer is an invasive species.

Maybe try some mini clear cuts and pre-commercial thinning. A clear cut up here in maple dominant forest will go to maple and yellow birch with beech very scarce. Do a fall harvest around October. I don't find that deer bother hard maple much or beech. They will go for red maple and yellow birch.

[KBforester]

The deer population is miniscule.

Just curious, what is your definition of miniscule?

Our beech is so far into the aftermath era, our best stands are getting beech crops every ten years (so the hunters tell me, I haven't seen one yet :()

[petefrom bearswamp]

the beech on our property is second or maybe even third growth, but is large enough (8 to 14") to produce a quantity of mast to attract the few deer we have, also black bears about every 3 years or so.
A secondary effect is that in good mast years I enjoy picking the nuts up when on watch and enjoying the flavor.
Being an obsessive compulsive sort I have counted 40 to 60  plus nuts within reach when sitting still in a good year.
Out of the 3800 acres approximately by my guess is 50 to 60 percent in a predominately beech.

[SwampDonkey]

Yeah that's tough when you have a high percentage of beech and want to control it. Just as bad or worst is hop-hornbeam. It will also take over a sugar bush as will beech. Beech is like walking through fencing all day. :D Bear do love the nuts, just look up into the canopy after leaf fall in a good year and see the 'nests'. They also like to raid oaks pretty good, as they climb all my pole sized oak on my lot. I have no mature oak. There are mature ones on the mountain in the back drop of my property.