building with green oak

[Delawhere Jack]

My only question is did he ask your opinion? I have found that many folks want what they want.  Give it to them, why are we sawyers seemily responsible for everything our custormers want?  As soon as a mention is made we are somehow responsible for the out come,  just saying,  I have dealt with more of this than can be counted.  What do they want?  Give it to them,  with maximum output, minimal waste,  unless they ask,  david

I need to keep my mouth shut more often. I know I've lost a few jobs by offering too much information.

[Jay C. White Cloud]

D. Jack,

It may not necessarily be the too much, it probably falls somewhere in the when, what and how section, of giving advice, solicited or not.

I can perhaps relate it like this, (which many have already stated,) when I, (or someone in our group,) is filling a lumber order, all we try to be is a sawyers.  We aren't loggers, arborist, carpenters, or timber framers.  We fill an order, very often not even asking what the wood is for, we really don't want to, or have the time to care what the client is doing with a wood order.  As already stated, that is there business.

As most folks already know I use and advocate green woodworking, believe or not, in this case, it has no bearing.  I can tell a short story that relates, and it is very germane to this conversation.  Ash and yellow birch logs got dropped off to be milled into 4/4 and 8/4 and 16/4 stock.  David filled the order the best he could with the bolts the logs yielded.

Sometime later the fellow came in all upset because his project was "blowing apart,"  (i.e. bench, table, fence and a few other items.)  He said you told me I could do this in green wood, David clearly had not.  I reminded him of what had taken place the day he dropped off the logs.  He stepped into the Beamery where some of the timber frames are cut, asked a few question of Jacob about green wood, timber framing, etc.  Jacob told him what we do and I explained what I was working on.  He asked a few more questions about books on the topic, (I gave him several titles.) He then asked, "can you build outdoor furniture with green wood," I said, (and this is important,) "I can, and the folks I teach can, but there is much to the craft of timber framing and green woodworking, and you must listen to the wood and understand it, to be successful.  If you do, it can be a very rewarding hobby."  I reminded of these events, and asked him if he had ordered and read any of the books, (he had not.)

Once he considered this conversation, and the qualities of the logs he had brought to be milled, he faltered in his desire to blame.  I also went on to explain, that from what little I had shared with him, he hadn't even headed those instructions and guidelines, so there is not surprise his project failed.  He has order a hunting cabin from us and is a very good client, now.  He also understands that attention to detail, and clear concise communication is paramount, and has learned to ask very thorough questions, which we will gladly answer.  He also understands now that, the do dillagence is on him, when he does a job, not the wood, the sawyer or even the method.

Regards,

jay

[board]

The customer called me back today to confirm that he still wanted the lumber. I told him there would probly be some shrinkage.He said how much and I told him I wasn't sure but that ought to give you that rustic look your looking for. He said alright and I need another 50 board ft. added to the order.

[Jay C. White Cloud]

Board,

Good for you.  Your a sawyer, and you gave him an honest answer as the sawyer, that he asked, no more, no less.  I hope he has success, and understands how to effectively do the job.  That part is up to him, not you.  I'm sure you will give him the best wood the bolts will yield.

Regards,

jay

[Tree Feller]

If I was in the sawing or lumber selling business (I'm not) I think I would be obligated to educate a customer about the product I was selling or producing. If I was selling green lumber, I would tell them that it will shrink and how much shrinkage to expect. There are online calculators to give that number...probably one on this site. I would advise them that green lumber might warp, twist or do undesirable things while drying. I would definitely advise them that, for indoor applications, dry lumber would be much better, even at the risk of losing a sale.

A person can buy lumber at a box store, but that's all they get...lumber. Personal attention and factual information always make an impression with the customer...at least in my experience. Selling them a product or service while knowing that they are not informed and may not get the results they desire is unethical in my opinion.

[Jay C. White Cloud]

Selling them a product or service while knowing that they are not informed and may not get the results they desire is unethical in my opinion.

I'm not going to speak for anyone else here, and if it sounds like I am, I apologize before hand.  I can appreciate your position Tree Feller, but as you have stated, you are not in the business of selling lumber.  No one here said, myself included, that we would not answers someones questions, or, in my case as an educator, even give advise. However, to do so is to expect and claim liability for that advice and you better be insured both in knowledge and insurance, that you can back that advice up.  It is not safe, nor warranted to open yourself up to liability by giving unsolicited advice.  If advise or guidance is solicited, you need to be very, very, careful.

I have more than enjoyed my time on this forum, and the exchanges of concepts, ideas, and yes, advice amongst ourselves, but I assure you, I checked myself before doing so. I also choose my words, carefully to validate a position, the foundation of that position, and the potential ramifications of that position.  I am well equipped to handle many of the questions that are posed on this forum, and I have no equivocation about sharing same, but would be remiss on this thread topic, if I advice a fellow sawyer to be more than just a sawyer, especially if they do not have the credentials to do so. It would be unwise, and unwarranted.  So I will, for the record, state my position clearly one more time,  if you are a commercial sawyer, be a good one and saw and provide the best lumber you can, no more and no less, that is your only obligation, unless you feel qualified, competent, and insured to do otherwise.

[NWP]

I don't sell or saw lumber either. I do find myself wondering would it be ok if someone came to me for firewood and told me they were going to go home and burn it right away but I knew it was green and didn't say anything?  Could I justify it by telling myself that I'm just a firewood cutter and nothing else and if they couldn't figure out it's green, too bad?  What if I had a large amount of walnut sawdust and someone wanted to use it for horse stalls not realizing it could harm the horses?  At some point, you can become liable for not warning of possible hazards. I may not have some piece of paper saying I'm an expert in this area or that but I do have common sense and previous experiences to draw from and maybe save someone some time and trouble. I know that when I do business with someone in a field I may not be really familiar with, it's great when they go above and beyond just selling me something that I may think I need/want and taking the time and caring enough to explain the pros/cons.

[Jay C. White Cloud]

Perhaps it's me, and the late hour, but this is getting a little silly. smiley_whacko

Apples and oranges,  again, I here what you are saying, but it's not germane.  Telling someone not to burn green wood isn't even in the same ball park as making architectural recommendation about the methods and means of using a piece of wood. 

The OP was seeking personal guidance for his own education about a potential application of a product he makes, a board.  He strikes me as a nice, and conscientious fellow, and a sawyer, not an architect.  He is not obligated in any way to tell a buyer of the wood he mills what to do with it, and even if they ask he can simply tell them he does not know, if he doesn't and/or to ask a builder that may specialize in the use of green wood, or even lets see, read a book. (I'm not being sarcastic, I going to bed soon, I just think this is a little more than silly.) Nobody should be made to feel like they have done something wrong or surreptitious if they don't state every possible problem that could occur with a piece of wood and how someone may use it.  (I don't, been doing this to long, and have to many happy customers.)  Now if the folks that seem to have a problem with this, really have a problem with using green wood, that's another matter and a different discussion.

[Tree Feller]

Jay, I was stating my opinion only. It's worth just what everyone here paid for it.   ;D

[francismilker]

when the boards warped and popped the head off the screws he'd used

Really?   ???   :

Yes, really..............  1/4" carriage grade 2 carriage bolts to be exact.  Some of the 1x's warped bad enough to turn a full half turn from diagonal ends. 

He asked me what type of lumber he was going to get out of the log when he brought it.  Before any sawing started I'd told him the log was pallet grade at best but not really worthy of sawing imho.  It was for firewood.   

After the boards done all their warping and he ended up asking me my opionion on drying, he also stated he should have loaded the log back up without sawing it a month earlier.

I had given him subtle advice without telling him his business.  This is America, the land of the free and the home of the brave.  Not too many people want advice as they want what they want and are all experts on every subject.  I don't give specific answers without specific questions being asked.  I learned that from helping an uncle out doing home remodel work as a teen.  If some lady wanted a bathroom painted turqoise, trimmed in pink, white flooring, green ceilings, and black bathtub he'd do it. 

Funny thing was, before he'd do it he tell her, "mam, I've got a lot of jobs going right now so if you don't mind and to keep me straight, would you write this down on a sheet of paper and put your name on it so I can keep jobs separated and don't order the wrong stuff for yours."

More than one time I heard a woman shreak as she stated, "that looks awful.  that's not what I wanted."  He'd then pull out the piece of paper with her instructions on it and ask her if he was at the right place?