You have been abducted by a UFO...

[Tillaway]

and dropped in the woods somewhere in Oregon or California.

How do you know where you are?

You find that you are..,

standing on a really bad road...no... wait it's a skid trail, and it's carved into the side of the mountain.  California

standing on a skid trail.... no... it has truck tracks....  California.

standing in the middle of a really wide gravel road  with guard rails ... wait... what is that?... Yes, it looks  like old pavement.................................................................  You 're in the middle of Interstate 5 in California, and you better get out of the way.. quick. ;D

sitting on a log and wondering why half the trees have been bumped, slabbed and brushed......................................  California

sitting on a stump and a Forwarder rolls by......................  Oregon

sitting on stump and not a skid trail in sight.....................  Oregon

sitting on a stump admiring how healthy trees look..............  Oregon

sitting on a stump, looking around and wondering "what were they thinking?"......................................................  California

in the middle of a 5 acre landing...................................  California

standing next to the road and a red pickup with a red light bar and "CDF Fire" painted side pulls up.  The driver is wearing a Fireman uniform....................................................  California... and the "Fireman" is really a Forester.

talking with a group of Foresters discussing, log marketing, the merits of fertilizer, when to start the first "lift",  the stream habitat improvement project they are involved with, how to grow for the export market........................................  Oregon

talking with a group of Foresters discussing,  what caused your latest Timber Harvest Plans rejection.  What new rules the Board of Forestry has in store. How long it took to get your last THP approved.  How dumb that guy is in Mines & Geology..............................................................  California

[Frank_Pender]

Amen! 8) 8) 8) 8)

[swampwhiteoak]

Tillaway,

Reading those make me laugh, but I'll have to plead ignorance on some.  Why are roads worse in CA?  Does it have anything to do with Oregon using more forwarders, why doesn't CA?  5 Acre landing?  I guess this has something to do with harvest plan laws but it is somewhat lost on me.

[Tillaway]

SWO,

Californians' gas tax money is put into the general fund for the state.  Very little seems to make it back to the highway system.  What does is spent doing analysis, planning and making sure we all feel good about what's happening.  Not much is spent actually fixing roads.

There is only one CTL operation working in the whole state North of Sacramento (that I know about anyway).  The reason for this is basically economic and the harvest practice rules for the state do not reward innovation.  A Timber Harvest Plan costs... well anywhere from about $5000 to $200,000 + to produce.  I have seen plans that cost over $1000 per acre to produce ($35,000 for 25 acres. : :-[ :'(  All this buys you is some flagging on the ground, marked trees and a several hundred page document that is only good for one harvest entry or three years.  After all this the plan submitter  (owner of the plan) cuts every corner possible while logging.  It's the only way for them to make any profit.  The plans are typically marked to meet minimum state stocking standards.  Also many of the state forest practice inspectors are not on board with the concept of CTL.  They are concerned about slash build up. Also trying to get a plan approved using any innovative idea leads to delays or no approvals and adds to expense.

Landings in Oregon or Washington are typically as small as possible.  This requires the use of shovels (knuckle boom loaders). Also Oregon and Washington rely heavily on cable yarders, shovel logging, and CTL for most logging.  These units cost much more than a 966 cat loader and skidder or dozer. A 966 and cat require big landing to sort and load.  California's forest practice rules allow cat's and skidders on slopes up to 70% ( up to 50% without designated skid trails).  Oregon and Washington require cable systems on slopes over 35%.  There is a little more to it but that's the gist.

[swampwhiteoak]

Tillaway,
Thanks for the explanation.  $1000/acre just for the plan?  It's a wonder any management ever gets done.  It's interesting that all that energy gets put into a document and the result is poor practices on the ground.  

If you don't mind, explain what you mean about minimum stocking standards.  Are the stocking levels checked two years after a harvest, or is this a defacto ban on clearcutting?

[Tillaway]

SWO

I had a good post for you all written up and then I lost it to cyber space. >:(  I'll get back to you tomorrow.

[Tillaway]

SWO,

You are right about no money being spent on stewardship.  All you have to do is stand on the state line and look into Oregon and compare the same timber type and management.  The Oregon side is growing good quality timber with fewer environmental problems.  It's funny but, you can see the state line from the air, and it's obvious.

Minimum stocking standards vary from regenerative type and Silvicultural prescription.  An example would be that a clear cut or any even aged management regenerative cut must meet a 300 point count per acre of  "countable" trees.  Or 50 BA per acre of trees one inch and larger.  There is quite a definition of what a countable tree is and trees of different sizes count more than others.  Also less desirable or noncommercial species can count towards stocking... sometimes.

I will list just a couple of things that go into a timber harvest plan:
 Archeological records check and / or full survey.  Anything 40 years or older counts as an archeological site.  This includes can dumps and general trash.  You have to prove that it is not "significant" to disturb it.  The only way to do that is to bring in an archeologist and dig.  You can harvest in these areas without a dig, but it does get challenging.

You have to check all the records and survey for at least one endangered species (Northern Spotted Owls).  If you have any sensitive or threatened species on the property or critical habitat for them (both flora and fauna) you also have to survey for them too.  Most of the time you have never even heard of the things you are looking for.  Needless to say there are lots of consulting biologist and archeologists here.

A friend of mine logged a conversion (land owner wanted to build a shop) and it cost him $500 to get the conversion approved.  This was just to cut 3 (that's right) 3 trees.

So how big is your Forest Practice Rule book?  Ours is 254 pages long, very small print, with allot of "pursuant to 14 CCR 1038.1".  1038's are one of my favorites here; this is the rule section regarding exemptions to doing timber harvest plans.

[swampwhiteoak]

Tillaway,
Thanks for the explanations again.  It's interesting to hear how things work on the other side of the country.

So how big is your Forest Practice Rule book?

Hahaha, not very big, we don't have one.  Here in Ohio we have a set of Best Management Practices recommendations.  They are voluntary.  You can look at them here:
http://www.hcs.ohio-state.edu/ODNR/Education/pdf/logging.pdf

We also have a "master logger" program to teach loggers the correct way to build roads, cross streams, ect.  

Their is only one law that applies to silvicultural non-point source pollution.  A person in the public can charge that you are polluting the waters of the state.  The Soil and Water Conservation Districts are responsible to go out to the site, inspect it, and recommend any practices to fix the problem.  The state is required to cost-share with the landowner.  By the time all this happens it can be 1-5 years later, depending on how many lawyers are involved.

This has been critized as a "pay the polluter" type law.  I suppose it is, but it hardly ever used anyway.  In reality we've got more of a problem with high-grading and people cutting up their forests into housing acreage than any pollution from logging.

Of course we don't get landslides either, so their is a big difference there in hydrology.  Cut to length harvesters and forwarders are very rare.  A few work with one paper company and recently on state pine plantations.  Somewhere around 80-90% of harvesting jobs statewide have not been marked or administrated by a forester.  Consulting biologists or archeologists?, well I've never seen one on a logging job.  In 1920 only 10% of our state was forested due to agricultural clearings and iron mills.  We're hanging around 30% now.

I guess California is an example of what happens when enviros write the laws, and Ohio is an example of the Farm Bureau writing the law.

[Tillaway]

For a better idea of what we go through kill some time here.  //www.clfa.org

[Ron Wenrich]

SWO

Ohio sounds a lot like Pennsylvania.  We have very few mandatory laws at the state level.  There are some local laws, but most are so poorly written that they do not deliver the desired effects.

The state has passed a right-to-log ruling.  This doesn't bypass local restrictions, it just means that local laws must allow some type of harvesting.  Select cutting usually reverts to high grading.  

The number one method of tree selection is diameter limit cutting followed by logger selection cuts.  Leaves a lot to be desired.

[L. Wakefield]

   Hi Tillaway. Got any webrefs on the Oregon Forestry Practice Rule Book? It sounds very cumbersome but like it approaches on some points the 'gold standard'. I wouldn't mind looking thru it.  :P   lw

[Frank_Pender]

  I     believe I found it for you.  Go to: www.odf.state.or.us

     From this site you would go to: Forest Practices The best of luck.  If this does not work, let me know and I will call the stae offices again. 8)

[L. Wakefield]

   Perfect! Thank you very much for that. I can't believe it's been so long since I had a chance to log in- you're post was 1/18 and now it's 2/1. I knew I was busy but that's ridiculous! :   lw