Intro and questions

[Tillaway]

We have a real hard time getting paid now.  In fact getting paid for a harvest plan is kind of a novelty.

Some day I might try and post some of the costs associated with a simple harvest plan and a few of the hassles we have encountered.

Cedar Eater

If there is a small woodlands owners association in your state, join them.  This will save you big bucks and you will find out who is the best logger and forester.  These folks usually have the same management goals as you.

If you do hire a consulting forester, have a clear priority for your management goals.  List them in order.  Stick with your list, don't change your mind once the forester starts his work.  This will allow the forester to a good job at a fair price.

[Cedar Eater]

Jeff B said:
My Statements were not to make you think that most foresters will turn you the wrong way, because most won't. What I am saying was, learn enough to recognize the one that might. Pick a forester like you would a baby sitter.

Talk to people, get recommendations and referals.

Jeff, please don't misunderstand me. I really appreciate your comments. I didn't take it that the average forester was out to get me. I'm sure the majority of foresters rank well above politicians, lawyers and realtors. ;D I just have to wonder what the good foresters are doing to help me know who the bad ones are. Do foresters have published standards and professional organizations that self-police? If so, can you point me to their websites? Can I get a look at a standard stewardship plan somewhere on the web? Are foresters an open bunch or a secret society? I see that the MFRA and SFI sites mention woodland owner outreach. No specifics were offered.

I'm trying to talk to people and get referrals, but until I meet with the CD forester, I'm trying to soak up what I can from people who hopefully have valuable experience. I'm hopefully developing questions that might help me avoid a big mistake.

Tillaway, I've looked for a local woodland owners org and the closest I found was the Michigan Forestry Association and the National Woodland Owners Association which both seem more political than practical. Any ideas on where to look for something else?

[Tillaway]

Cedar Eater,

Try finding some members in your area of one or both the organizations you have found.  They should help steer you toward a participating forester.  Yes, they are often political but they can network you to help you desire.

Before hiring any forest consultant ask for references, call the owner of the woodland and arrange for a visit.  Most owners are happy to show off their lands and the forester should be proud of their work.

Consultants services can vary and some do specialize.  On the west coast some consulting firms will develope business plans, help with financing woodlands, market logs, study mill feasibility,and keep biologists on staff.

The consultants out here run the gamuck of drawing maps by hand and working up cruises with a calculator to integrating mapping and cruise data collection with GPS and delivering your maps as a GIS coverage.  The latter is usually more accurate and is still cost competative.

Heck, I cruised the last nine years and I didn't even have to carry a pencil. 8)

[timberbeast]

Cedar Eater:  yep,  bolts are just some guys' way of saying "bigger than a post".  Some say "sawbolts".  Obviously,  unless you have no recourse,  you're not going to sell a 24" Cedar log as cordage to a fence company,  because if it's solid,  there's a lot of lumber value there,  so a "bolt" is kinda what you don't want to mess around milling,  but the fence company will dice it up into 6" stuff for fencing.  And,  yep,  they are picky!  But I've noticed a LOT of junk thrown off to the side that some guys try to pad loads with,  punky Balsam and stuff like that.  My guy knows that I only bring him really good stuff,  and he scales me high because of that.  He quit buying in late June last year,  but if you're a regular,  he'll take a last load if you already have it cut,  and offer you one more.  
If you can get your hardwood to where someone can get to it with a boom truck,  someone will come and get it.  Rather than dragging it on the ground,  build yourself a small dray and skid them out on that.  It's low enough to the ground that if you're in decent shape,  you should be able to load stuff by rolling it on with a cant hook.  I usually cut from when I can get back to my property until I can barely get out,  which in most years is about late April until around late November.  Most winters are impossible with my equipment,  since there's usually at least 3 feet of snow on the ground,  and they don't plow my road.  I could have really made some time this winter,  but my tractor is broken down on a skid trail,  that's the way it goes sometimes! :D
Sounds like you're getting your ducks lined up in a row pretty well,  though!  As for me,  I'm putting in 12 hour shifts at a foundry....egads!!  How come I can work in 90 degree heat cutting Cedar in a swamp dawn til dusk and feel great,  but work inside for 12 hours and feel like a corpse???
Gotta be mental!! 8)

[Cedar Eater]

That's really strange timberbeast. Around here, almost all of the cedar is cut in winter. We need frozen ground or snow or there's no access. My tractor has 4WD and a front end loader. I'll scoop deep snow or lay boughs on top for a green carpet if the snow gets too deep. I met a guy yesterday who skids five 75" bolts behind an old Evinrude snowmobile. It has a 22 inch track and it can reverse.

I heard a story from another cedarjack about a guy felling trees all winter and not skidding them out or building any roads with the boughs. He tried to get them in late March and sank his old cat up to the lever handles. Then it rained and then it froze. He returned to find a frozen pond with an exhaust pipe sticking out of it.  :D Not only did he lose his cat, but the logs were a total loss before the  next winter. :'(

The cedar mill here doesn't want cedar felled in May-August. He says the bark peels before he starts buying again in the winter. That's when the sap is the worst too.

I never get cedar logs in the 24" range. My biggest has been about 20", but I might keep that one and his brothers for milling into 4/4 or maybe 5/8 for my next deer blind or my pole barn. I get about 5 cords of 75" logs for each cord of 100" logs. I'm cleaning lots of blowdowns and blowovers. I'm cutting the curves up for firewood. The people with outdoor wood stoves love cedar because it's cheap, light weight, burns hot and doesn't make much ash.

[Ron Scott]

One needs to select their Forester just as they do their doctor, lawyer, etc. and you need to know what your land and resource management objectives are. Be sure that they are a professional forester, certified, registered, belong to their professional forestry organizations, etc. etc.

Get references and don't be afraid to request them. Look at their work on other jobs, etc. Know the difference between independent professional consulting foresters and industrial foresters. Does the forester work with the ecosystem where all the parts are connected or are they just after the timber as you stated? Select one that knows how ro apply integrated resource management.

Consulting foresters may work on a commission, by the hour, by the acre, or by the project.

Check the Forum links for Society of American Foresters, Michigan Society of American Foresters and other State Societies, Association of Consulting Foresters of America, Inc. etc.

[timberbeast]

Cedar Eater,  you're right,  most cedar is cut in winter,  and frozen ground sure is a blessing.  Problem is,  I don't live up there,  it's 250 miles from home.  In order to keep the road clear,  you have to plow at every snowfall,  no way you're going 4 miles down a two-rut trail through 3 feet of snow unless you have a big Cat.  As a young buck,  I'd sometimes snowshoe in,  cut all the cedar I could,  and skid it a log at a time with a toboggan to my landing.  I have a shack on the property,  that I stay in when I'm logging.  Boy you should have seen me in those days!!  
You're right about the pitch,  too,  a lot of places won't take anything but winter-cut Cedar.  My problem is I have an Allis B,  no hydraulics,  hand crank,  1939.  You get more than a foot of snow,  the front tires "snowplow" every time you try to turn.  Yet,  it's small,  so my skidding lanes are narrow,  and I use tire chains all year,  and I use brush and slabs along the lanes to keep from digging in.  It ain't the easiest,  wearing Sorels in July and covered with mud,  pitch and sawdust,  but until I can afford better stuff,  it's the way I have to work.  If I lived up there,  I'd throw a plow on the ole' F250 and cut all winter,  get me a small Cat to skid,  and do my milling in the warmer months.  Hell,  a stack of Cedar logs will be fine for years in a pile,  if you're sawing them,  too.  If the bark comes off,  more the better,  it's really abrasive on my mill teeth!
Also,  if I let a couple of cords of posts sit for a year or so,  I can pull off the bark and the farmers down here in WI will give me three bucks a piece,  to use as fence posts.  The best place to contact to sell that stuff is horse farms.
Someday,  Cedar Eater,  I'll get where I want to be.  Until then,  I just gotta work at it,  bit by bit.  Those curved blowdowns make great dray runners,  by the way!  

[Bud Man]

Cedar Eater - (With-All Due Respect) You sound like a King Salmon swimming upstream without getting to share in similar rewards.  Got to be in the most relenting environ I've heard of yet.   Got to be an easier way!!  Have you tried a hot air balloon tethered to a loader??   How bout a snow-mobile ??  how bout taming a Reindeer and hooking him up. Santa only uses his one day a year !!  I'm gonna give this some more thought....Whew !!!

[Cedar Eater]

Maybe I could cut a feed for skid deal with Santa. :D :D :D When I cut cedar in late winter the deer sometimes feed on the tops within 20 yards of me. I guess they know that chainsaws don't cause SBDS (Sudden Bambi Death Syndrome).

It sounds like timberbeast has it worse though. Cedar swamps in warm weather are muck traps.

I've got an ancient Ski Doo that doesn't run and has a bad trac. When I get a round tuit I'll try to recommission it. My tractor is only five feet wide, but bucket swing (for the frontend loader) requires wide curves. With a snowmobile, I could have a 3' skidding trail. I've got a 1979 International Scout that also doesn't run and has a completely trashed body. If I can get it running, I've been thinking of turning it into a dray dragger.

So many plans, so little time (and funds).

[Bud Man]

Cedar Eater-- Ever thought of creating a neat sounding Foundation and asking for donations?? Hell's-- Bell's Nobody could ever pursue you for an explanation to where all the collections were going !!  How bout-- "Saving Bambi's Sanctuary"  Ought be good for a couple of Mill !!!

[L. Wakefield]

I went through a whole year of special training through Oregon State University Dept. of Forestry Extension and updated trainings since and still do not charge for my services after I donated the required return hours for the training.  I guess I enjoy helping people so much I forgot to charge anything at all.  There were 22 of us in the first class that graduated as Master Woodland Managers.  

   Boy, I like the sound of that! How many credits? I doubt very much University of Maine has that, but I can ask. I am a firm believer in getting the education yourself for the project you are doing. There's no way I could take a year off but I can do night classesd or 2x week if the location and schedule is right.    :P   lw