Need advice on 50 acres of 10yo natural loblolly at 600spa

Virginian · February 13, 2015, 04:35:03 PM

I recently bought 50 acres of timber, primarily for privacy as it adjoins my personal property. However, I also want to manage it for timber and have recently put a hunting lease on it. I've been reading many, many forestry publications but they seem to generate even more questions.

Background: 50 acres with a stream running through it, clear cut many years ago. I had a forester walk it and they gave me a cruise saying it has 10+/- year old natural loblolly with 600+/- trees competing with natural hardwood regeneration. Currently I can't even get into it as it is so thick. Hunters had no luck this past fall either (due to the same reason). I know there are many, many deer in this plot but they need shooting lanes.

Does this require pre-commercial thinning? I'm going to try some PCT this weekend in one spot, down to 10'x10' spacing or so for 2-4 acres (or more depending on how it goes) so we can plant clover (or some other deer crop) between the pines to help with the hunting. Will leave any oaks I see. This is the thinnest spot due to a lot of garbage and debris piles so should be easy going. Using chainsaws between 3 of us. Mine is a lightweight 16" Tanaka.

For the hardwoods that I do cut how long can I wait before spraying with roundup? I'm also asking this question because I have another smaller plot (hardwoods and pine) that will be clearcut soon and I plan on following behind the crew at the end of the day and would like to kill all the hardwoods so that I can replant in loblolly. Is it minutes or hours or days?

Should I fertilize the 50 acres? The articles about fertilization that I have read all seem to be talking about large acreages and are fertilized much earlier than 10 years old...

Any other advice? I love the outdoors and this seems like a great opportunity to spend my few days off enjoying the woods.

Southside · February 13, 2015, 07:54:41 PM

Can't really answer your questions as my goals and opinions on management appear to be different than what you are after but welcome to the Forum. Just curious, and not passing judgment about it, but why are you putting all your eggs into the pine basket?

Magicman · February 14, 2015, 07:58:34 AM

Welcome to the Forestry Forum, Virginian.

Claybraker · February 14, 2015, 01:18:42 PM

Quote from: Virginian on February 13, 2015, 04:35:03 PM

For the hardwoods that I do cut how long can I wait before spraying with roundup? I'm also asking this question because I have another smaller plot (hardwoods and pine) that will be clearcut soon and I plan on following behind the crew at the end of the day and would like to kill all the hardwoods so that I can replant in loblolly. Is it minutes or hours or days?

First, welcome.

I'm assuming you are talking about cut stump. You need to treat them immediately, as in minutes. I'm not a big fan of Round-Up. For the labor involved, cut-stump would be low on my list. I've had better luck with Hack/Squirt or basal bark spraying, depending on stem diameter. Tordon, Imazapyr, or Trichlopyr all work better.

Did your Forester say how long before a commercial thinning would be economically viable? I'm a huge fan of letting someone else do the work, and then pay me. YMMV.

curdog · February 14, 2015, 03:42:50 PM

For hardwood control I like waiting for a season and spraying with Imazapyr (arsenal ). This will give the hardwoods time to resprout and see how much herbicide work is needed. You can either site prep spray or release seedlings with arsenal. ..... welcome to the forum

Virginian · February 14, 2015, 07:55:10 PM

Quote from: Claybraker on February 14, 2015, 01:18:42 PM
Did your Forester say how long before a commercial thinning would be economically viable? I'm a huge fan of letting someone else do the work, and then pay me. YMMV.

I went back to the Forester's report. He said "Trees should be ready for first commercial pulpwood thinning in about 7 years". I only got about an acre cleared today. My chainsaw was the only one to finish the day and I spent way too much time putting the good firewood in my pickup truck bed. I think we cleared enough today to make the hunters happy and it may be easy enough to just wait the 7 years for the commercial thinning.

Thanks to all for the warm welcome. And I appreciate the advice on the roundup use. I used it today as it was all I had available but will look into the other brands before the next time.

Claybraker · February 15, 2015, 08:08:10 AM

I should have mentioned we like pictures.

Hardwood control is worth doing, particularly if you've got a lot of low value species like Sweetgum. We hates Sweetgum. I think you'll find it much more enjoyable to walk around your property with a hatchet and squirt bottle, or even a back pack sprayer than a noisy chainsaw wearing chaps, hard hat, etc. What kind of underbrush do you have? Any invasive species?

Southside · February 15, 2015, 10:21:40 AM

Funny how folks hate gum, around here gum pays 27% better than pine, poplar can pay up to 137% better...

Magicman · February 15, 2015, 02:25:20 PM

Quote from: Southside logger on February 15, 2015, 10:21:40 AMFunny how folks hate gum

Yup, I have 40 year old Sweetgum trees that are 10-12" dbh. That plus the saplings will take over any open land within a couple of years. Good reason to hate um.

Southside · February 15, 2015, 04:04:46 PM

Quote from: Magicman on February 15, 2015, 02:25:20 PM
Quote from: Southside logger on February 15, 2015, 10:21:40 AMFunny how folks hate gum
Yup, I have 40 year old Sweetgum trees that are 10-12" dbh. That plus the saplings will take over any open land within a couple of years. Good reason to hate um.

Wow, I cut one down a couple weeks ago, sat there filling up my saw and for the heck of it counted rings, 26 years old, and I got a 14' #1 mixed hardwood log out of the but, which had to be 12" plus on the small end. I have seen some 50 year old ones that were monsters.

Magicman · February 15, 2015, 04:23:38 PM

Yes, individual trees with no competition can grow quite large, but when they infest open unattended land they grow tall and slender, sometimes only two-three feet apart.

I put Sweetgum in the class with Pecan, Black Locust, Persimmon, & Honey Locust. They are all problems and "invasive" species to me. :-\

Claybraker · February 16, 2015, 08:08:08 AM

I'm not a Forester, just a landowner. I've read enough literature on mid-rotation hardwood control in loblolly to know that the returns are pretty impressive, even if you have to pay someone to do the work.

In my case, since I'm doing the work myself, the costs are minimal:
Herbicide $3-400
Decent Axe 120
Back pack sprayer 100
UTV 13,000*

* price may vary depending on options and location. Georgia exempts equipment used in agricultural or timber production from sales tax. 8)

Southside · February 16, 2015, 12:14:04 PM

Presuming of course the pine market is strong when you decide to harvest and you don't have any insect infestations over the life of your stand.

Virginian · February 17, 2015, 08:22:47 PM

The guy running the clearcut operation is recommending a commercial thinning of the 50 acres by cutting rows every 30 feet to run the cuttings through a chipper. Said he can get to it later this year. Wouldn't pay me any/not very much money but would thin the trees which would help the future harvest.

mesquite buckeye · February 25, 2015, 09:35:18 AM

Quote from: Magicman on February 15, 2015, 04:23:38 PM
Yes, individual trees with no competition can grow quite large, but when they infest open unattended land they grow tall and slender, sometimes only two-three feet apart.

I put Sweetgum in the class with Pecan, Black Locust, Persimmon, & Honey Locust. They are all problems and "invasive" species to me. :-\

I like all of those for timber.

Maybe I just like lemonade. ;D