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T&G Ceiling slats

Started by Babaloui, March 12, 2015, 02:40:18 PM

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Babaloui

Hey guys, I have just finished assembling my Norwood LM29 (no thanks to the bloody weather) and I'm hoping to start stacking lumber in the next few weeks. I have a project house on my wood lot that I am slowly restoring with the lumber I will be havesting soon and could use some of the wisom I've seen on the forum. I'm wanting to cut tongue and groove ceiling slats approx. 4"w x 10'L x 3/8" thk. from the Loblolly Pine I have standing about 12 miles east of Mineola Texas (East Texas). The coverage is approx. 1200 sq. ft overall. I don't have a kiln of any sort but I am planning on building one. Here's what I'd like to know:

1. What is the optimum thickness for the rough cut.
2. what is the best and quickest method for drying.
3. Any suggestions on the kiln would be appreciated.
4. Any other suggestions that will get me to that 1200 sq.ft of material quickly would be appreciated as well.

Magicman

I am only wondering why you want to take it down to 3/8".  In my mind, that is kinda thin and not leaving much room for the T&G.  I do not go thinner than ¾".
98 Wood-Mizer LT40 SuperHydraulic    WM Million BF Club

Two: First Place Wood-Mizer Personal Best Awards
The First: Wood-Mizer People's Choice Award

It's Weird being the same age as Old People

Never allow your Need to make money
To exceed your Desire to provide Quality Service

Den Socling

Me too. I plane to 1" and then run them by a router table to make T&G.

Edit: Rough to 1" and plane to 3/4".

WDH

I would cut the pine to 1" rough.  Sticker stack under an open shelter with fans blowing on the stack.  It will air dry to about 15% in about 6 weeks.  In my kiln, it would take about another week to get down to 8%.  Then, I would plane to 3/4" finished, and T&G on a router table or a shaper. 
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Babaloui

Sorry, I should have mentioned the reason for the thickness. The ceilings in this old house are not a standard height like you might find in a modern house. They are approx. 7'9 and I don't want to reduce that height any more than I have to. The ceiling is already covered with old 5"x3/4" wide pine (opposing joints like a shiplapping) and it is un-even due to setteling, not a lot but enough to notice. I don't want to replace the ceiling, I just need a sort of "Faux" covering. I will be laser referencing the ceiling, adding variouse thickness stickers to even it out and nailing the 3/8" T&G to it so there will be a 1/2"-1-1/2" varying air space between the old ceiling and the new. I can buy the 3/8" thick T&G at Home Depot right now so I know it can be done. I just don't want to pay that much and I have all the tools to cut it myself. I just need some insight on the best way to cut the log and dry it. Can I slice 1/2" rough cuts for drying and then plane to 3/8"? Can I dry that thickness without any problems?

WDH

I would leave 1/4" over the target thickness for planing.  That would be 5/8" rough sawn.  I would sticker on 12" intervals, and then stack other lumber on top of the ceiling stock to add weight to help keep it flat.  Otherwise, cut that thin, you might get some waves or crooks at the knots that will not plane out.  Cut at 5/8", the pine will air dry very fast.  It will also take less time to dry to less than 10% in a kiln. 
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

GeneWengert-WoodDoc

Loblolly pine, especially from smaller trees, is known to twist, side bend and cup.  This is why it is seldom sawn under 2" thick.  Then add the warp around knots.  You have chosen a difficult species to work with for this use.

The tongue needs to be fairly long and groove deep to allow for shrinkage and yet not let the tongue come out of the groove.  Overall, T&G ceilings are tough to make, install, and then keep looking good as the moisture changes annually.  Using SYP makes things even tougher.
Gene - Author of articles in Sawmill & Woodlot and books: Drying Hardwood Lumber; VA Tech Solar Kiln; Sawing Edging & Trimming Hardwood Lumber. And more

Cedarman

The ERC that you find in box stores is around 5/16" to 1/4" thick depending on the manufacturer, so it wood can be TG 3/8.  But pine is a different species completely.  The only T&G pine that we have made was 3/4" x 5 1/2" V groove with a V in the center of the board also.  V groove makes any movement harder to see.  Flat T&G makes it easy to see the joint if there is movement.  Dried to 8 % and has looked great for years.

If you have time, do a test run on a couple logs and see how it turns out.  Try 3/8", 7/16" and 1/2". See if there is any difference in warp or twist as it dries for the different thicknesses.   The experts are recommending 1/4" thickness oversaw. 
For cedar I oversaw only about 1/8" because of almost zero shrinking in thickness and no cupping.  Some sidebend does occur.
I am in the pink when sawing cedar.

Babaloui

If using Loblolly Pine is an issue maybe I should try some other species. In order of abundance I have sweetgum, aromatic cedar, red oak, white oak, cataba (indian cigar), and black walnut. How would these work out? Also, almost all the Loblolly Pine is 20" or more in dia.

Den Socling

Walnut is forgiving but I don't know if a dark ceiling would be good. Red Oak cut that thin should be OK. Stay away from White Oak and especially Sweetgum.

red oaks lumber

we rough saw 1 1/8 kdry. and resaw to a full 1/2" mould from there. i don't know how lobbloly acts but, i'm guessing its similar to red pine. resawing after its mostly dry should be ok. if you cant resaw, cut your boards 1/2 thick and when you sticker to dry put 2 pcs. together giving you a thicker pile of lumber, i would use stickers every 12" .
the experts think i do things wrong
over 18 million b.f. processed and 7341 happy customers i disagree

WDH

Loblolly will make some nice tongue and groove if you stay away from the younger plantation pine.  The younger plantation pine has a high proportion of juvenile wood, and juvenile wood creates drying problems.  Older growth, natural loblolly behaves much better and will work good for your project.  Just be sure to saw the logs with the pith centered. 
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Magicman

The 3/8" T&G bead board paneling that I bought to finish a couple of bathroom ceiling were probably White Pine.  The T&G was also narrower than ¼".
98 Wood-Mizer LT40 SuperHydraulic    WM Million BF Club

Two: First Place Wood-Mizer Personal Best Awards
The First: Wood-Mizer People's Choice Award

It's Weird being the same age as Old People

Never allow your Need to make money
To exceed your Desire to provide Quality Service

Babaloui

Well,  I feel better about using the Loblolly now. It is by far the most abundant and the largest trees I have on the property. I like the suggestion of cutting a little thicker, drying, then re-sawing. It seems to make sence with respect to keeping the wood stable.

Thanks guys. I'll let you know how it turns out.


Babaloui

I really feel like a moron now. I had a forestry service guy come out t my place and help me file for a forestry tax exeption. In his inspection he indicated that all the Loblolli pine I thought I had was actually short needle pine. So much for my species identifying. Does this change anything? I've already sawed about 800 bf of 11" wide 5/4 x 10' placed stickers (1" thick 18") apart and covered them for air drying.

WDH

No, it does not change anything.  It is one of the 4 major southern pines, and the wood from all 4 species is all sold as SYP.  Wood properties are basically the same. 
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

GeneWengert-WoodDoc

Shortleaf pine tends to have more resin than loblolly.  For that reason, if resin will be an issue in the final product (and your product would be an issue), then the wood needs to be kiln dried, using 180 F or hotter for several days.

It seems that all the southern pines like to warp, especially wood from near the center of the tree.  So, if you do get warp, it is the tree and not your processing, as it sounds like you are doing things correctly in stacking and air drying.  Faster drying will be flatter, so avoid slow drying as much as possible.
Gene - Author of articles in Sawmill & Woodlot and books: Drying Hardwood Lumber; VA Tech Solar Kiln; Sawing Edging & Trimming Hardwood Lumber. And more

Cedarman

Curious, Gene, why does faster drying keep pine flatter than slow drying?
I am in the pink when sawing cedar.

GeneWengert-WoodDoc

Here is a short explanation...hope it is clear.

When we dry fast, the outside of the wood, the shell, dries first, tries to shrink but cannot due to resistance from the wet core.  So, the outside dries flat. At this point, there is a lot of stress but it does no damage.  In fact the stress is so high that the wood actually is stretched permanently, called tension set.  Finally, the core begins to dry and shrink when it goes underr 30% MC, but now the shell is dry and quite a bit stringer...almost double.  The shell now resists the core's shrinkage attempt.  So the lumber is flat.

Note that if you were to rewet the lumber at 20% to 40% MC, when the shell is dry, you will now weaken the shell so that it can indeed warp as it is trying to do.  Rewetting could be from rainfall, too humid in the kiln at start-up, a broken pipe, or mixed MCs in the kiln at start-up.

So this is why I always state:  Once drying starts, NEVER let the partially dried lumber regain MC.
Gene - Author of articles in Sawmill & Woodlot and books: Drying Hardwood Lumber; VA Tech Solar Kiln; Sawing Edging & Trimming Hardwood Lumber. And more

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