Lots of Logs Going Somewhere

[Rhodemont]

Made a trip up to  my place in Corinth, Vt yesterday to look things over before the storm.  Had a couple big log trucks along side all the way up I91 on the way north early in the morning. Looked like all pine. Then on the way back down I91 going home in the afternoon there was a steady stream of fully loaded trucks heading north.  Saw one every couple minutes all the way until I got to Mass when it got dark. They must have been going all day. Was it all stopping in Vt or continuing on to Canada?

[chep]

Hey Rhodemont

I live in Bradford so hit me up the next time you come up for a visit! Love meeting "local " members!

Most of the trucks you saw are headed to Canada. They come down with product and take raw logs home. It makes me sad to see all that wood leave our economy to be processed in Canada only to be sold back to us as material. Sad state of affairs with our domestic mills/processing facilities.  
But also without Canada the northeast markets would be very limited so grateful to have a market at all. 

[PoginyHill]

No softwood mills of significant size near the VT border. Hardwood veneer logs might stop in Newport, a border town.

[moodnacreek]

Hey Rhodemont

I live in Bradford so hit me up the next time you come up for a visit! Love meeting "local " members!

Most of the trucks you saw are headed to Canada. They come down with product and take raw logs home. It makes me sad to see all that wood leave our economy to be processed in Canada only to be sold back to us as material. Sad state of affairs with our domestic mills/processing facilities.  
But also without Canada the northeast markets would be very limited so grateful to have a market at all.

The crazy state of Vermont will not allow any new sawmills to be built and they always complain about there wood leaving.

[Nebraska]

That would be like this state not allowing another meat processing or ethanol plant to go in? What's up with that??

[PoginyHill]

There is no prohibition against new mills, per se. But with Vermont's environmental laws and general distaste of any non-tourist industry, it is essentially impossible to start much new that is manufacturing. Although micro-breweries seem to do well. If the mill I work for had not been here pre, say 1980, I doubt it would have been built. NH would have been a better choice.

[Rhodemont]

Chep,  We have a grass fed beef farm in Corinth.  I go in through Thetford.  Do not go to Bradford too often other than passing through if helping deliver stock to PT Farm in North Haverhill to have them processed.  I will check in next time I am staying overnight.

I was on cruise control at 68mph and passing trucks in the morning on the up hills.  But on the down hills get out of the way they would blow buy.  I was kind of surprised the State Troopers did not get after them.  Heck I got a ticket for going 72 couple years ago.

[moodnacreek]

There is no prohibition against new mills, per se. But with Vermont's environmental laws and general distaste of any non-tourist industry, it is essentially impossible to start much new that is manufacturing. Although micro-breweries seem to do well. If the mill I work for had not been here pre, say 1980, I doubt it would have been built. NH would have been a better choice.

I believe it is called act 250, some kind of state zoning. It has been in effect for a long time. Vt. once had some program called 'Vermont logs for Vermont jobs'. As I recall it was a anti logging movement. I have read where just pilling logs on the side of the road can be a problem up there.

[donbj]

Hey Rhodemont

I live in Bradford so hit me up the next time you come up for a visit! Love meeting "local " members!

Most of the trucks you saw are headed to Canada. They come down with product and take raw logs home. It makes me sad to see all that wood leave our economy to be processed in Canada only to be sold back to us as material. Sad state of affairs with our domestic mills/processing facilities.  
But also without Canada the northeast markets would be very limited so grateful to have a market at all.

There's a sort yard here that pretty much sends all its logs to the USA. The rule here basically says it has to be wood the local market doesn't want. It isn't that it's low quality wood, it's more the mills have enough supply so they can market south of the border.
On a different topic, we have a drywall manufacturer in Alberta that exports to the USA. We can drive across the border and buy their product cheaper there than we can here at home. Doesn't make sense but that's trade at work. Have to consider the exchange when it gets bad though.

[mike_belben]

Sounds like american pharmaceuticals retailed in canada for a fraction of the usa retail.

[donbj]

Yes. Things going on that if you or I did we'd probably get in trouble

[Ed_K]

 The problem with Ma. and Vt. is we let too many people from big cities Conn. N.Y. come in and build 2nd homes and started running the towns and gov.

[PoginyHill]

There is no prohibition against new mills, per se. But with Vermont's environmental laws and general distaste of any non-tourist industry, it is essentially impossible to start much new that is manufacturing. Although micro-breweries seem to do well. If the mill I work for had not been here pre, say 1980, I doubt it would have been built. NH would have been a better choice.

I believe it is called act 250, some kind of state zoning. It has been in effect for a long time. Vt. once had some program called 'Vermont logs for Vermont jobs'. As I recall it was a anti logging movement. I have read where just pilling logs on the side of the road can be a problem up there.

Yes, Act 250. Passed in the early 70's but gets worse each year. That is the act that prohibits billboards or any business sign not on the property of the business. Not heard of anything regarding log piles, but an uncovered sawdust pile is a no-no, if your business is covered by Act 250.

[Mbunten]

I wonder if any of those loads were going to the Allard log yard by Newbury Crossing? I'm sure Chep knows where it is. Right on Rte 10 near the Haverhill fairgrounds.

Matt

[peakbagger]

I used to drive from Lyndonville up to Barton on I 91 often and would see big loads of real nice logs heading up to I believe was a veneer mill n Newport VT just short of the border, I think it was Columbia Forest Products. They were real nice logs and i think some of them had tags on the butt end.

Its not just act 250 there are some other laws but ACT 250 is the big anti development law. There are law firms who specialize in stopping projects using Act 250. There are numerous ways to delay a project and only one path to get it approved. There was a big biomass power plant planned for Springfield and another one in south central VT that both got nailed by act 250. I think Walmart went over a decade to get a permit and it explains why there is Walmart in Woodsville NH and Littleton NH as they both are not that long of a drive from VT. I think there is Costco in the Burlington area that has been trying to put in gas pumps for over a decade, the competitors along the strip just hire a law firm to delay it when they can as they dont want the competition. I think Woodstock stoves has a factory just over the line in NH to avoid act 250. Its good for NH as we get the businesses that still want to be in the Northeast but dont want the hassle of ACT 250.

[GAB]

The VT land gains tax did it's part in slowing development.

@Ed_K you forgot to add NJ.

I do not know if it is fact or fiction but I was told that many logs are loaded on ships in Montreal bound for China and when they get there they have been sawed and the lumber dried.  If anyone knows for sure please chime in.

GAB

[Ianab]

I do not know if it is fact or fiction but I was told that many logs are loaded on ships in Montreal bound for China and when they get there they have been sawed and the lumber dried.  If anyone knows for sure please chime in.

Urban legend as far as I can tell. The export logs loaded here and bound for China / India / Korea / Japan are loaded on a regular looking bulk carrier

[PoginyHill]

I do not know if it is fact or fiction but I was told that many logs are loaded on ships in Montreal bound for China and when they get there they have been sawed and the lumber dried. If anyone knows for sure please chime in.

Lots of oak and some maple veneer logs are exported. Loaded in regular containers and shipped either out of Boston or Montreal. Years ago white pine was also - not sure about now.

[chep]

I do know the allards yard in haverhill well. I know raymond who is the scaler there. 

I bet that wood wasnt heading there. If it was for allards it wouldn't be on those Canadian flatbed trucks. they will usually haul logs out of their yard to southern vt to their main mill not north. But who knows. I know there aren't a lot of options for hemlock logs anymore besides the local sawyers who custom cut. There is no market here for red pine. The markets for pallet logs and white birch logs are nearly nonexistent.  So Canada fills the void. Like i said we are lucky they are there or ourmarkets would be really bad! 

[SwampDonkey]

It makes me sad to see all that wood leave our economy to be processed in Canada

Trust me, we sell a lot more wood to your side, unprocessed wood off public and private land. :D The hardwood forest up here has been butchered for 30 years to replace with softwood. At one time it was illegal to export raw logs off public land until threats and intimidation (I'll close the mill) got the better of the government. Most of them closed anyway. :D Too much capacity to process and harvest, declining wood supply. Everyone knew it, road the wave. 2008 shook everything out.

If there is any veneer logs it's going to Maine at Columbia Forest Products. I can't imagine hauling reg hardwood logs up to NB because they don't pay much more than pulp price on hardwood logs, don't need to, all kinds off public land for a song.

When I built the house in 2018, 99% of the materials were made in Canada. Something I'm quite proud of.

[Rhodemont]

Sounds like next time I go to Corinth I am going to have to plan to follow the stream of logs and see where they are going and meet Chep.  The logs on the flatbeds , 3 and even some 4 stacks, looked mostly big and straight  although there were medium size on board as well.  No small tops with branches.  

Here in RI we have a pressure treating operation in Davisville.  Every morning as I had up I95 to Mass there are 2 or 3 loads of PT headed south and then 2 or 3 more headed North after I pass the exit they get on.  Our local "Coventry Lumber" stocks the brand, a bit more $ but much nicer than what the box stores carry.  Does not seem like any shortage headed out of Davisville.

[nativewolf]

It makes me sad to see all that wood leave our economy to be processed in Canada

Trust me, we sell a lot more wood to your side, unprocessed wood off public and private land. :D The hardwood forest up here has been butchered for 30 years to replace with softwood. At one time it was illegal to export raw logs off public land until threats and intimidation (I'll close the mill) got the better of the government. Most of them closed anyway. :D Too much capacity to process and harvest, declining wood supply. Everyone knew it, road the wave. 2008 shook everything out.

If there is any veneer logs it's going to Maine at Columbia Forest Products. I can't imagine hauling reg hardwood logs up to NB because they don't pay much more than pulp price on hardwood logs, don't need to, all kinds off public land for a song.

When I built the house in 2018, 99% of the materials were made in Canada. Something I'm quite proud of.

That's super, the 98% that is.  

[chep]

Rhodemont. 
Plan on following them all the way to the border! I have loaded enough logs on those style trucks that they are easy to spot. Another way is to look at the license plates! 
Let me know when you are up north 

[SwampDonkey]

I was thinking that lately I have not noticed much wood moving except my cousins little nickle and dime cut he worked on for 6 weeks. The border here don't open until 8:00 am on the US side, Trump saving money I guess. So I have not been seeing pulp trucks roll through that often. Back before COVID it was non stop, hardwood and popple. A lot goes to Huber in Easton, Me. Most are probably going through Houlton now if there are any mills still open down below there. Hard to keep track of, lots of closing, starting up and buy outs over last few years. I'm not involved with wood marketing now for a few years. I think the Fort Fairfield, Me power plant closed up to, maybe 4 years ago? NBPower ran a new line over there recently and Quebec power to, don't need to make steam no more I guess. Paying less than I do, that's what bites  the citizenry in the back side. ;) The processors play that game to, pay less local so they give more to someone 1200 miles away for potatoes when there is all kinds local. Doesn't matter if they are more to get, not going to let the locals get fair price. If they want more production, pay more. Nope. :D