Batteries

[scsmith42]

Replacing the battery with a newer one (or new one) usually resolves the problem, leaving me wondering why my resistance tester says "ok" when obviously the cold cranking amps are below the required amount.

Electricity is a confusing thing at times.  Your resistance tester simply takes the path of least resistance and gives you a reading.  Reading amperage is another thing entirely.  This is done by electronics and a measurement of electron flow across a metal bridge of known properties.

It is also advisable to invest in a battery charger and condition your battery from time to time.  Disconnect the battery cables, clean the terminals and charge the battery overnight using a low setting of 2amps or so.  While the alternator is designed to recharge the battery, it doesn't fully top it off.  Over time a condition called sulfation builds up in a battery.  Things just get mucky and affect ability to deliver and store power.  By fully charging a battery or slightly overcharging the battery for a short period heats it up a bit and can help break down and reduce sulfation.  Don't take my word for it, read about it online.

I'm familiar with sulfate buildup; I've used desulfination chargers for decades.  Some of the best ones that I ever used were the ones built into the older Onan automatic transfer switches.  They sent a 6A pulse to the battery every 8 - 10 seconds and those batteries seemed to last for years.  Modern desulfination chargers use high frequency instead, and I don't think that it works as well.

[scsmith42]

Scott, there you go costing me money again! 

Robert, I live for that!  My day is now complete!!!  Next thing I'll have to see if I can get Jake to open up his wallet and buy something - then my week will be complete!

.

[Magicman]

If when you need a jump box, don't overlook the NOCO 4250, but Jake already made some of us spend $$ after he used his.  It is what it is cracked up to be.

[YellowHammer]

Yea he did.  I had a dead battery on my 100hp diesel tractor a couple weeks ago, cold weather and the battery wouldn't even turn it over.  I hooked up the NOCO, never used it before, turned the key and about spun the flywheel off. 

I happened to be shooting a video of it, and was stunned at how well it worked. 

It crushes any other jumpbox or jumper cables I've used by a mile.  It's stupid easy and stupid good. 

[gspren]

 I'm not sure who makes the batteries for Federated Auto Parts but they seem ok and for me they're convenient. Two weeks ago I tried to start my Kubota BX to put the snowblower on and it cranked too slow. I was going to hook up my fairly new NOCO Genius battery maintainer that I bought because of a thread on here but it's hard to get to the terminals without pulling the battery half out during which time I realized that it's close to 10 years old  so I cleaned off the top, sapped a pic and sent to the local one man auto shop I deal with. He texted back and said he'd have one there later that afternoon which was fine with me, saved a 20 mile round trip to town and he took the old one out of the back of my suv and set the new one in. $90. and next morning it spun faster than it had in years.

[barbender]

 I've had excellent service out of Carquest batteries, which I can't remember if they're DEKA or East Penn brand. No matter, because they've switched from Carquest brand to Diehard. Idk who makes those.

[YellowHammer]

I'm still trying to figure out how the new jump boxes work. They have small gauge cables and small alligator clamps which indicates a need for a lack of amperage flow, but an increase in voltage.  Also, when I applied the charger to the dead battery, it read 12.4 volts instantly, which was the average voltage of the circuit.  There is no way to have brought a dead battery, I assume maybe 10 volts, to 12.4 instantly with small diameter conductors unless the lithium battery in the jump box was providing an over voltage which read as 12.4 volts to the parallel circuit.  However, I know my tractor starter, and it spun way more than a 12.4 volt battery would have caused, and certainly not instantaneously like it did.  So my guess is that the processor on the jump box has a 36 volt or something battery potential, and at non draw conditions regulates the parallel batter6 circuit to a nominal 12.5 volts.  However, when the starter is engaged and there is significant battery draw, the jump box processor reacts and overdrives the combined parallel battery voltage to 13 or 14 volts, so may be putting out 16 more volts, and regulating and overdriving real time.  The fact that it was able to do a full start in seconds and not even show a less than full charge when it was done indicates it is playing some pretty cool games inside it's little brain, much different than any standard 12v jump box I've used before. 

Does anybody know how these things actually work?  My curiosity is in overdrive on these guys. 

[Ianab]

Does anybody know how these things actually work?  My curiosity is in overdrive on these guys. 

I'm not sure, but I think when you connect the little jump starter it pumps some current into your almost flat main battery. Hence the 12.4V reading. You might expect that across a dead flat battery that has just started to recharge. It might be taking ~20A of charge from the jumper pack and still read that if it was dead flat. But that gets the battery from "dead flat" to "at least some charge" in minutes. Then when you hit the starter you have that new charge from the main battery, AND whatever the jumper pack can pump out. Added together it's enough to start the engine. Some jump starter packs tell you to connect, push the button and wait 5 mins. Because it's then the jumper AND your main battery, with a 5% charge, doing the job.

[customsawyer]

I didn't even read this thread. Just so I don't have to spend any money.  ;D

[Stephen1]

I forgot about this thread and went to our Canadian Tire and bought a new battery for my forklift. They give a 3 year warranty as long as it goes in a car or truck, so the parts guy says its going in a 98 dodge and reminds me by highlighting the warranty.

[YellowHammer]

I agree 100%, all my other jump boxes required me to hook up the cables, wait for a few minutes, try to crank, battery not quite ready, wait impatiently, try it again, maybe get it to hit and spin over slowly, try again, maybe get lucky, disconnect and then recharge the box because it was drained.  Much like using jumper cables, hook them up and let the dead battery come up to voltage, sometimes taking 5 or 10 minutes, revving the donor engine, or even pluging it in, and letting the jump box actually begin charging the dead battery.  Then come back after an hour or two, and start the engine. 

This was a completely different experience.  At around 8:20 in this video, I jumped the tractor.  The video clip was shot in real time, literally seconds from hooking up the NOCO to turning the key, because as soon as I clipped on the leads to the battery, the lights started blinking and it read 12.4 V.  So I simply walked to the cab, got in and that was it.  Then when I disconnected the leads, the cables were cold and the jump box still read 100% charge.  How can this miracle occur? By the way, I bought a smaller size than what Jake has, this one was significantly less expensive and the one my tractor dealer sells and says will crank any tractor they sell.  In the video, you can hear the first quarter second after I turn the key when the starter kind of slow spun, then it's like the processor in the NOCO said "feed it" and the system got a huge boost of voltage (maybe current, maybe both, I don't know, but the starter spun like a beast.  I wish I had the camera on the voltage display) and then the starter spun like a full charged battery on a warmed oil engine, not a cold engine with cold oil.

Anyway, these jump boxes are game changers, and I discuss the scenario MM was talking about at Customsawyer's place. 

Concrete Sawmill Slab - You've Never Seen One Like This! And Real Use of the NOCO Lithium Jump Box! - YouTube       

[Magicman]

I have pondered the same questions Robert. 

To put another twist into the equation, I have used my NOCO to power my sawmill hydraulics when it was off of the power strip and the pump motors seemed to run at full speed/force.  I was only operating the log clamp which is not a heavy amp situation but it's still drawing ~160 amps under a virtual no load application.  As you stated, apparently the voltage is jacked up to handle the Volt/Amp (wattage) load.  This sorta equates to us using 8 volt batteries in 6 volt vehicles to boost the starting power.

My old 900 amp regular jump box with a gel battery always struggled and the hydraulics were slow.  I figured that the internal battery was tired and replaced it but there was no improvement.  Anyway, I am sold on the NOCO.

[21incher]

I bought the Gooloo 4000 after watching a Project Farm video about the jumpers and the Gooloo being the best buy. That little  thing amazes me. The Lithium batteries  can provide very high draw without voltage drop for short periods.  By limiting  the time they can get away with smaller cables due to the short length and built in relay that limits mine to 30 seconds max. Really handy for small equipment that sits.

[Magicman]

I already had a couple of smaller jump boxes in the cars but the reason that I opted for the NOCO 4250 was I knew that it would see service operating the sawmill hydraulics and as I stated above, it does amazingly well.

[SawyerTed]

I'm also sold on NOCO products.  Their jump boxes perform extremely well. 

I've added several NOCO 1 amp battery charge maintainers and have NOCO Genius onboard chargers on my boat.  The NOCO maintainers get rotated with a couple of OptiMate maintainers.

After a mental inventory of starting and deep cycle batteries here I believe there are 21!  I don't have to do the math to know that's a small fortune in batteries.  Keeping them charged/maintained is worth the time.

I imagine some Forumites have more than double that number of batteries to maintain.

[scsmith42]

I agree 100%, all my other jump boxes required me to hook up the cables, wait for a few minutes, try to crank, battery not quite ready, wait impatiently, try it again, maybe get it to hit and spin over slowly, try again, maybe get lucky, disconnect and then recharge the box because it was drained.  Much like using jumper cables, hook them up and let the dead battery come up to voltage, sometimes taking 5 or 10 minutes, revving the donor engine, or even pluging it in, and letting the jump box actually begin charging the dead battery.  Then come back after an hour or two, and start the engine. 

This was a completely different experience.  At around 8:20 in this video, I jumped the tractor.  The video clip was shot in real time, literally seconds from hooking up the NOCO to turning the key, because as soon as I clipped on the leads to the battery, the lights started blinking and it read 12.4 V.  So I simply walked to the cab, got in and that was it.  Then when I disconnected the leads, the cables were cold and the jump box still read 100% charge.  How can this miracle occur? By the way, I bought a smaller size than what Jake has, this one was significantly less expensive and the one my tractor dealer sells and says will crank any tractor they sell.  In the video, you can hear the first quarter second after I turn the key when the starter kind of slow spun, then it's like the processor in the NOCO said "feed it" and the system got a huge boost of voltage (maybe current, maybe both, I don't know, but the starter spun like a beast.  I wish I had the camera on the voltage display) and then the starter spun like a full charged battery on a warmed oil engine, not a cold engine with cold oil.

Anyway, these jump boxes are game changers, and I discuss the scenario MM was talking about at Customsawyer's place. 

Concrete Sawmill Slab - You've Never Seen One Like This! And Real Use of the NOCO Lithium Jump Box! - YouTube     

Great video Robert (and nice slab!).  I too hope that Jake doesn't get the "big head"! 

[rusticretreater]

Does anybody know how these things actually work?  My curiosity is in overdrive on these guys.

I'm not sure, but I think when you connect the little jump starter it pumps some current into your almost flat main battery. Hence the 12.4V reading.

Well, after reading this I had to know.  So internally there are some microchip electronics that do several things.  The unit reads polarity and wont let you pump electricity in if the leads are hooked up incorrectly.  There is voltage sensing and adjustment from the electronics.

The leads are made of higher flow, lower resistance alloy to allow maximum current to flow.  But only for a short time or they will melt.  The system will deliver power in pulses to the jumped system.  When done correctly, this supplements power still in the battery and also is fast enough to meet the demands of a starter motor.  However, it can only do this for a short time.  The units usually shut down after about 30 seconds to keep from overheating things. Power pulsing also allows the cables to stay cooler.

Lithium battery technology with high amperage, quick discharge properties.  Longevity based on use amount and proper maintenance/charging of the battery.

[21incher]

That's the battery type but there are also super capacitor types that scavenge power from the dead battery and release it at a higher level.  They have 100,000 cycle rating where most battery ones will drop off after 600 charge cycles.