Cast Iron Mattison behemoth...

Percy · December 25, 2017, 07:46:25 PM

Had a glance at a many headed moulder that needs a serious forklift/crane to move....8-10,000 pounds according to the owner. All the motors work but its old. Can get it for a couple grand Canadian. I dont know nothing about these machines cept not wanting a lighter duty Logosol/baker etc. Am I wasting my time here ?? Or can these machines produce??
THx.
Percy

longtime lurker · December 25, 2017, 09:55:03 PM

Depends on what model it is.

No such thing as a bad Wadkin, they're a "built to last forever" machine of outstanding quality. The wadkin moulders are up there with Weinig and Rex and Pinheiro in the top tier of manufacturers, parts tend to be available after a search and what you can't buy a good machine shop can build.

Bad side is that the earlier model machines can be finicky as with most machines of that generation. Setup times are longer and require a degree of precision the modern digital stuff doesn't. Not impossible - but it's operator level care rather than trained monkey stuff. Find out a model and number of heads and I might be able to give more than general advice... im pretty familiar with the GD and GA series from the 80's

If the bed isnt worn and depending what tooling comes with it, probably worth a look. The real old dolls with a cast iron bed you really need to look at the bed with care. Beds are rebuildable but the dollars start to add up to more modern second hand values quick.

Weight in a moulder is good. Those modern lightweights suffer for want of steel which is why they don't last long.

Percy · December 27, 2017, 11:53:16 AM

Quote from: longtime lurker on December 25, 2017, 09:55:03 PM
Depends on what model it is.

No such thing as a bad Wadkin, they're a "built to last forever" machine of outstanding quality. The wadkin moulders are up there with Weinig and Rex and Pinheiro in the top tier of manufacturers, parts tend to be available after a search and what you can't buy a good machine shop can build.

Bad side is that the earlier model machines can be finicky as with most machines of that generation. Setup times are longer and require a degree of precision the modern digital stuff doesn't. Not impossible - but it's operator level care rather than trained monkey stuff. Find out a model and number of heads and I might be able to give more than general advice... im pretty familiar with the GD and GA series from the 80's

If the bed isnt worn and depending what tooling comes with it, probably worth a look. The real old dolls with a cast iron bed you really need to look at the bed with care. Beds are rebuildable but the dollars start to add up to more modern second hand values quick.

Weight in a moulder is good. Those modern lightweights suffer for want of steel which is why they don't last long.

Thanks. Ill get some model numbers etc.....

GeneWengert-WoodDoc · December 27, 2017, 01:38:53 PM

I agree about the bed plate

Another costly concern is knives.

It is likely that bearings need replacement for fine work. Does it include indeed and outfeed tables?

Appreciate that the reconditioning costs can be covered if you have a lot of production.

Is the mill that is selling making 2x4s, hardwood flooring, molding?

Do you need 220 v. Three phase?

Percy · December 27, 2017, 03:22:18 PM

Quote from: GeneWengert-WoodDoc on December 27, 2017, 01:38:53 PM
I agree about the bed plate

Another costly concern is knives.

It is likely that bearings need replacement for fine work. Does it include indeed and outfeed tables?

Appreciate that the reconditioning costs can be covered if you have a lot of production.

Is the mill that is selling making 2x4s, hardwood flooring, molding?

Do you need 220 v. Three phase?

I have only had a passing glance at this machine but will investigate it more carefully in coming days. The relativly low price makes me worried about things you mentioned like the table etc. It is three phase, I have an idle 50 kw unit but not sure if its enough for this particular machine. The owner is emailing me model numbers etc so I can research abit before going to view/make offer....heh....

Don P · December 27, 2017, 04:35:43 PM

Not knives so much as cutterheads... make sure at least a set of straight cutterheads come with it otherwise you are looking at several grand right out of the box.

Percy · January 18, 2018, 11:44:14 PM

Well my bad. Apparently its a Mattison 229. I found 5 heads/side heads are 7.5 hp each and the bottom and two top heads are 20 hp each. The motors look propriatary. Its been in the weather for a couple years. Lost of rust everywhere. Covered in snow right now....is that a deal breaker?? Looks like alot of work

trim4u2nv · January 19, 2018, 12:24:15 AM

I have 3 mattison 229s all 4 head 15 hp top/bottom. 15hp and 4 head was much more common than 20hp. It probably weighs closer to 11000 pounds. If left outside the horizontal heads can rust to the point you cant adjust thickness. It would take a 20hp dust collector to clear chips also. I have run 2 machines with a 3rd for parts for 14 years. They are a really robust machine.

Percy · January 19, 2018, 09:17:26 AM

Quote from: trim4u2nv on January 19, 2018, 12:24:15 AM
I have 3 mattison 229s all 4 head 15 hp top/bottom. 15hp and 4 head was much more common than 20hp. It probably weighs closer to 11000 pounds. If left outside the horizontal heads can rust to the point you cant adjust thickness. It would take a 20hp dust collector to clear chips also. I have run 2 machines with a 3rd for parts for 14 years. They are a really robust machine.

Thanks for the info. I may pass on this machine. Will need a 100 kw genset to run it. The you tubes Ive seen on these machines is impressive though. Just this one is more work than Im up for and prolly larger than I need.

trim4u2nv · January 19, 2018, 03:32:15 PM

I saw 2 of those setup to make cabin siding. I think the ran on 150kw generator setup. If it has hydroloc safety heads 2k is a good price. If it has slick steel heads 1000 to 1200 usd would be more in line. Open the pb switch panels and look at the starters make sure mice didnt get inside.

Percy · January 19, 2018, 04:02:42 PM

Quote from: trim4u2nv on January 19, 2018, 03:32:15 PM
I saw 2 of those setup to make cabin siding. I think the ran on 150kw generator setup. If it has hydroloc safety heads 2k is a good price. If it has slick steel heads 1000 to 1200 usd would be more in line. Open the pb switch panels and look at the starters make sure mice didnt get inside.

i don't know what a hydroloc head is or a slick steel one. I'm a newbe when it comes to this kinda stuff. Please explain if you have the time. Thanks

trim4u2nv · January 19, 2018, 04:44:37 PM

Hydrolock heads have a grease fitting and clamp by hydraulic pressure to the motor shaft. Usually more modern and have grooves like a sawtooth ground in the head and cutter blade. The grooved heads are referred to as safety heads. Slick steel heads usually have a collet and large ring nut to tighten onto the motor shaft. The slick steel blades are flat on both sides and retained by a gib like a jointer head typically has. The oldest type of head is square with slotted blades and low profile nuts holding the blade in. (Dangerous).

Percy · January 19, 2018, 10:08:29 PM

Okay. Thanks. The one head I did get a look at was the last top head or the fifth one. I recollect grooves in it and there were grease fittings I noticed that were directly in line with head centers or possibly motorshafts all though on the opposite side of the motors.

The table was covered in ice so I could not inspect it closely. There were about 4 more electrical switches in addition to the five head switches. I also noticed an air cylinder on the input end. There were levers with rulers behind them and a couple of 1/2 inch ratchets, one on each side about midship with about a 1.25 socket on it. I'm assuming something Thst is adjusted often.

Thanks again for your help. I'm reconsidering thanks to your input although I have no idea how I could power it. Sigh

Darrel · January 20, 2018, 11:22:46 PM

That could be made to be a great machine, question is how much work will it take and is it worth it? Back in the 70's and 80's I operated a 229 looked just like it (minus the snow). If properly set up, it will do way better than the logosol or any of its knockoffs. Side heads both tilt to 45° to the top side and I think 15° to the lower side of the stock. All five heads adjust horizontally and vertically. Jointers attach to all 5 heads. If you have a choice, go with the hydraulic heads. They are quick and easy to lock heads to spindles and even quicker to unlock. I've never had a hydraulic head come loose which is more than I can say for standard heads.

If I had the power to run a machine of that size, it would be my first choice of any American made moulder. I've run other Mattison machines but the 229 is by far the best imo.

Percy · January 21, 2018, 08:35:14 PM

Quote from: Darrel on January 20, 2018, 11:22:46 PM
That could be made to be a great machine, question is how much work will it take and is it worth it? Back in the 70's and 80's I operated a 229 looked just like it (minus the snow). If properly set up, it will do way better than the logosol or any of its knockoffs. Side heads both tilt to 45° to the top side and I think 15° to the lower side of the stock. All five heads adjust horizontally and vertically. Jointers attach to all 5 heads. If you have a choice, go with the hydraulic heads. They are quick and easy to lock heads to spindles and even quicker to unlock. I've never had a hydraulic head come loose which is more than I can say for standard heads.

If I had the power to run a machine of that size, it would be my first choice of any American made moulder. I've run other Mattison machines but the 229 is by far the best imo.

Wow! Thats quite a recommendation. The guy wants 2K for it and the local scrap metal guy is paying a little over 100.00 per ton. My guzzintas say I can recover about half my money if its a dud/too much work. Thats a 1000 dollar risk....hmmmmmm

Darrel · January 21, 2018, 09:06:53 PM

Take a dial indicator and check all five spindles. If any one of them is more than .003 out, walk away. If the bearings are bad, they can be replaced without breaking the bank. I'd plan on replacing the bed plates or at least getting them surfaced, again, not a bank breaker and you may get lucky and not have to do it. The feed system most likely has what is called a lagbed (spelling) on the bottom instead of rollers, it's a wide chain, about 8" in width. These would wear and start moving up and down a bit, causing the stock to move up and down under the first top head. Two solutions, the Cheaper of the two will work if you are only using the first top head to size stock and using the second top head to finish or put on a profile. Bad surface from first top head gets cut off. The better solution is to ditch the lagbed system and replace it with bottom feed rollers.

Ljohnsaw · January 22, 2018, 08:24:30 PM

Quote from: Percy on January 21, 2018, 08:35:14 PM
Wow! That's quite a recommendation. The guy wants 2K for it and the local scrap metal guy is paying a little over 100.00 per ton. My guzzintas say I can recover about half my money if its a dud/too much work. That's a 1000 dollar risk....hmmmmmm

I thought the guess was 11,000 lbs? At $100/ton, that would only get you $550. (11,000/2,000*100).

Percy · January 22, 2018, 08:43:36 PM

Quote from: ljohnsaw on January 22, 2018, 08:24:30 PM
Quote from: Percy on January 21, 2018, 08:35:14 PM
Wow! That's quite a recommendation. The guy wants 2K for it and the local scrap metal guy is paying a little over 100.00 per ton. My guzzintas say I can recover about half my money if its a dud/too much work. That's a 1000 dollar risk....hmmmmmm
I thought the guess was 11,000 lbs? At $100/ton, that would only get you $550. (11,000/2,000*100).

Thanks for the math correction. I'm a metric guy and get confused easily. As Jethro said "I done graduated highest in the class. Was a foot taller than the rest of them."🤡🤡

Don P · January 22, 2018, 09:25:18 PM

Having bought a 10,000 lb Vonnegut when steel was at 12 cents thinking "How can I go wrong". Eh, some boat is going to need a new anchor one day :D

longtime lurker · January 27, 2018, 05:03:17 PM

Yeah I've bought a few boat anchors in my time too. If the scrap guy is paying a hundred a ton and he's the only other buyer in sight then its worth about $150 a ton is my new "non working antique" pricing system. Theoretically speaking... I always end up paying more.

I'd probably buy it if I had the $ spare, subject to the spindle wear being acceptable. Personally I've always had a preference for that last generation of "mechanical systems" equipment (to differentiate it from the next generation which was the start of the digital controllers). Pretty simple, without the techno worries of the newer stuff or the need to be an engineer headaches of the older stuff.

Work it backwards. If a similar vintage Weinig or similar sells for $x this thing is worth $x minus a bed surface and a set of bearings and the lagbed replaced, and a quick sandblast and respray. Worst case it is more interesting then a collection of garden gnomes or pink flamingos on your lawn anyway.

woodworker9 · March 26, 2018, 10:12:21 AM

I have a friend who is running two 229's in his shop, and is currently setting up a 276, as well. They are fantastic machines, once set up. All were restoration projects that took time, but in his opinion, after the fact, well worth the effort in the long run.

That being said, that is one helluva way to store a machine, outside under a foot of snow. Breaks my heart to see that, but such is the way of things. I find vintage machines stored outside all the time, and I can just never figure why someone wouldn't, at least, build a quick shed over the top of it to protect it from the elements.

Besides the guys giving great advise already here, there are also several guys at the OWWM forum with a lot of knowledge about these molders, still running them for production work. So, between the terrific knowledge here and over there, you should be able to work your way through getting that machine up and running again. I know from personal experience that it isn't going to be quick, though. Definitely some time put into disassembly, cataloging everything, figure out what's in need of repair, etc......and putting it all back together and learning how to tune it up for optimal performance. Once done, though, you'll have a great machine for life.

I hope you save it. I think the guys asking price is quite optimistic considering his fantastic storage system.