drying 6" x 6" ash

[nybhh]

I've been dropping what is left of my ash trees this fall/winter and milling them into a cut list for what will eventually be a Roubo style workbench.  Most of the lumber is being milled as 8/4 and will be glued up to form the top, stringers, etc.  

I want to do the legs as solid pieces and they will finish out at 5" x 5" x 32" and I'm milling those as 6" x 6" x 48" pieces out of odd logs, short sections, kinks, etc.  I've Anchor sealed all the end grain (2 coats) and have plenty of extra length to trim off some end checking but I've had my mill less than a year and and only worked with EWP that size so far.  

Does anyone think it will be a problem to bring these larger pieces into my heated/finished basement to accelerate the drying process a bit so they will hopefully finish up about the same time as the 8/4 material?  I'll be air-drying the 8/4 but we're not going to see 40 degrees for 3-4 more months so there will be little to no drying on the bulk of it until spring.  I do plan to build a solar kiln next summer so this all may all end up in there at some point but I'd be worried about 6" material in a kiln until it is down to about 15-20% anyway.

We're only talking about 50 bf so I'm not worried about too much moisture down there during the winter where I would be running a humidifier if it wasn't a basement.  I can put a fan on them too but would probably wait a few months until summer before doing that.  I have moisture meter so I can monitor the progress but just don't know what to expect out of hardwood that thick.

Thanks

[Don P]

For that size and length I'd saw free of heart pieces to try to avoid checking, yes they will probably bow but you'll get your pieces out of those dimensions. If you box heart the legs they will more than likely check. Pouring the dry heat to them will probably turn some into dimensional firewood, cut extras.

[nybhh]

Yea, the first 4 are boxed heart but foh is a good idea to try too.  Thanks.  The good thing about these short pieces is that it isn't too difficult to find a couple of nice 4' sections from even the crooked firewood trees I've saved to the end so easy enough to cut several extras.  Any leftover 4 footers can get ripped down for stickers too and the wife loves nice, neat dimensional kindling stacked under the wood stove ;)

[WDH]

If you put the 6x6 in a heated room, they will dry too fast and will split and check pretty bad. 

[nybhh]

Thanks guys.  I think I'll leave this first set drying in the barn and cut some extras out of firewood to experiment with.  

[muggs]

Consider gluing them up out of 8/4.    Muggs

[Magicman]

Absolutely, I would do a glue up for the legs after drying.  I would orient the different wood grains for strength and stability.

[farmfromkansas]

I built my bench from 2x oak, and glued up the 2x to make 6x6 legs.  The thing that helped was making mortises by leaving a gap when doing the glue up. That old bench is really solid.

[nybhh]

Thanks guys, I'll cut enough extra 8/4s to glue up the legs as well.  Probably makes the most sense and makes it a little easier to hide imperfections in the wood as well.  I should have gotten to some of the trees a year or two ago.  

@farmfromkansas , That's a great idea to leave a blank in the glue-up for the mortise.  I've seen tenons done that way by holding back the sides but doing the mortises that way would save even more time.  I was planning on blind mortising the legs to the top but I'll have to give that a try, thank you.


@Magicman , I'm glad you mentioned that because I've been going back and forth on the pros and cons of alternating the grain for the top for stability reasons like you mentioned also.  I'm worried though that would make it too difficult to hand plane.  I'll glue the top up in two 13-14" separate sections that will each fit through my 15" planer but I'll need to hand plane everything after the final glue up as well as any maintenance flattening that is needed.  The legs of course will be less of a problem to do that way but the top worries me.  

[Magicman]

I am not following why two glued up panels would be different from two solid panels being glued together?  The final glue joint will have to be hand planed/finished with each.  I believe that glued panels would be much more stable and would be worth the extra pain/work.

Because of the different wood grain orientation the glued panels may require that all cutting tools be super sharp, but that is what you want anyway. 

[nybhh]

I think I probably just misunderstood you.  ???

I agree on the glue ups being way more stable than solid pieces but thought you meant to alternate the grain direction between individual boards where a single swipe of the plane would catch some with the grain and some against.  

Anyway, starting with the legs and stingers will probably be a good way to work the kinks out anyway and be a lot easier to clamp and handle.  Thanks again for the input guys, I appreciate it.

[WDH]

If your wood is properly dried and stable, flipping the boards with the grain one way then the next is not required.  Wood only moves if it is not in equilibrium with the end use environment.

[low_48]

Ash is like candy to powder post beetle. Treat the lumber if you are going to store it in a barn.

[Al_Smith]

From my observation the beetles are more fond of white oak than ash .I've hosed them down with seven dust in a water applicator with good luck .

[GeneWengert-WoodDoc]

It is important to appreciate that there are several different powderpost beetles.  Example:  There is the ambrosia PPB that likes ash, but only attacks wood above 18% MC or so.  There is the lyctid PPB that we find in oak, but likes drier wood as low as 8% MC.  Plus there are others.  So both previous postings by Al and Lower are correct.

AMBROSIA.  The ambrosia PPB, which is prolific in air yards, has around three crops a year and spends some of its life in wood debris on the ground or in wood stickers or 4x4s.  So, a tidy yard with stickers stored after kiln drying (over 140 F) in a dry location free of wood debris or other wood not heated, and 4x4s that get into the kiln with each use (assuming the kiln goes over 140 F), will assure that these insects will not have much chance of success at your mill.  They will not be active in KD wood.  They like hardwoods and softwoods.

LYCTID.  The lyctid, virtually 100% of the time, needs some infected wood (firewood, foreign wood from another mill or from another country that is infected, nearby fallen trees a year after a storm that were not cleaned up) that brings this beetle into your yard.  Once the eggs are laid and hatch, the larvae can eat tunnels in the wood for as long as one year, and rarely three years, before they all leave the wood at which time you see the tiny exit holes.  They then reed and lay new eggs in wood that has nooks and crannies, like oak.  They only like hardwoods, so will not be in pine...but other PPB can infect pine.  

Note that most pine is not dried to lower MCs, and most is at higher MC in use as floor joist in a crawl space or outside uses, so pine can be more attractive to PPB that like wetter wood.

ALL PPB AND MORE.  As the insects are living inside the wood and doing damage, treating the wood with a surface treatment does not work.  Using a strong insecticide on the surface will potentially prevent NEW eggs from the insects from beginning their life cycle after they hatch, but because this insecticide can affect subsequent processing (it will be in sanding dust, planer shavings, or even in the wood that people touch and unknowingly do not wash from their hands before eating or preparing food, or in baby furniture or in a kitchen table top or cutting boards, etc.), it is not smart to treat wood in this way and for the health risk it is illegal to sell such wood without a notice (CIS) about the chemical you applied.  

Spraying all the wood debris on the ground might limit the ambrosia PPB, but you need to spray the 4x4 several times to get a thorough treatment, including spraying the bottom side of the 4x4 that is touching the ground.

[GeneWengert-WoodDoc]

When gluing up a panel that has several narrow staves, the idea of alternating the adjacent staves end for end has been carefully examined and shown to not be an advantage.  Oftentimes, it is impossible to accurately determine the grain, so in production it is virtually impossible to try to do this, unless all the staves are from one board.

Appreciate that size change is always caused by moisture change, so proper drying, storage, proper shop humidification to match the customer's home or office humidity will prevent problems.  Due to the hysteresis effect, annual cycle in most homes and offices will not be an issue.

[scsmith42]

It is important to appreciate that there are several different powderpost beetles.  Example:  There is the ambrosia PPB that likes ash, but only attacks wood above 18% MC or so.  There is the lyctid PPB that we find in oak, but likes drier wood as low as 8% MC.  Plus there are others.  So both previous postings by Al and Lower are correct.

AMBROSIA.  The ambrosia PPB, which is prolific in air yards, has around three crops a year and spends some of its life in wood debris on the ground or in wood stickers or 4x4s.  So, a tidy yard with stickers stored after kiln drying (over 140 F) in a dry location free of wood debris or other wood not heated, and 4x4s that get into the kiln with each use (assuming the kiln goes over 140 F), will assure that these insects will not have much chance of success at your mill.  They will not be active in KD wood.  They like hardwoods and softwoods.

LYCTID.  The lyctid, virtually 100% of the time, needs some infected wood (firewood, foreign wood from another mill or from another country that is infected, nearby fallen trees a year after a storm that were not cleaned up) that brings this beetle into your yard.  Once the eggs are laid and hatch, the larvae can eat tunnels in the wood for as long as one year, and rarely three years, before they all leave the wood at which time you see the tiny exit holes.  They then reed and lay new eggs in wood that has nooks and crannies, like oak.  They only like hardwoods, so will not be in pine...but other PPB can infect pine.  

Note that most pine is not dried to lower MCs, and most is at higher MC in use as floor joist in a crawl space or outside uses, so pine can be more attractive to PPB that like wetter wood.

ALL PPB AND MORE.  As the insects are living inside the wood and doing damage, treating the wood with a surface treatment does not work.  Using a strong insecticide on the surface will potentially prevent NEW eggs from the insects from beginning their life cycle after they hatch, but because this insecticide can affect subsequent processing (it will be in sanding dust, planer shavings, or even in the wood that people touch and unknowingly do not wash from their hands before eating or preparing food, or in baby furniture or in a kitchen table top or cutting boards, etc.), it is not smart to treat wood in this way and for the health risk it is illegal to sell such wood without a notice (CIS) about the chemical you applied.  

Spraying all the wood debris on the ground might limit the ambrosia PPB, but you need to spray the 4x4 several times to get a thorough treatment, including spraying the bottom side of the 4x4 that is touching the ground.

Very insightful information Gene - thanks for sharing.
Can you tell us what species of PPB typically infest dry SYP and what should be done to help control them?
Thx.

[Stephen1]

Great info Gene, I've book marked this. 

[GeneWengert-WoodDoc]

Ambrosia is one PPB. I would have to lookup others.  Stay tuned.

[nybhh]

Thank you Mr Wengert.  This is really great info.  Does extended periods of freezing temps have any effect on destroying or reducing insect populations?  I understand live trees don't really freeze without extreme cold but once wood is milled and stickered, does extended periods of time in sub-freezing temperature help at all in our war on 6 legs?

Thank you for your contributions.

[GeneWengert-WoodDoc]

Thanks.

Cold temperatures result in no activity of the insect, including eggs and larvae, but cold temperatures do not kill them (except maybe as we get close to -40 degrees).  That is, they can over-winter successfully.

Some have jaws that are no strong enough for eating dry wood, so they prefer wetter wood ; others like wetter wood for some other reason.

An outer layer of poison (not all insecticides work, however, on all insects) on the wood will prevent most insects from entering, but will not stop those already active inside.  

So, from a practical viewpoint, heat is the most practical approach.  With some wood items, we also need to control the humidity when heating to avoid excessive drying, shrinking, warping, cracking, etc.  Of course, heat will soften many adhesives, so heat is not possible on many finished items.  As a result commercial fumigation with a dangerous gas is the only option.

With all this discussion, insect infestations are rare.  Paying attention to the cleanliness of the areas where wood (logs or lumber) is stored, is air-dried, or is stored before and after drying, will prevent almost all sources of the insect.  At the same time, avoid contact with foreign wood in the storage area and with wood from others that do not keep things tidy.

[Old Greenhorn]

@nybhh I am just re-reading this. I have a couple of short Ash logs that are 6 footers I took down in June, they were long dead standing dry. When I pass them by today I will try to stop and check the MC and see if I have any left worth milling. If I could figure out a way to get them in my truck I could drop one off to you, save you some time maybe? Perhaps the stuff you have down is the same as mine, hard to tell. With regard to that solar kiln, you have my interest up. I mention it here so we can talk about it when I see you Saturday.
Tom

[nybhh]

Hey Tom,
Yea, lets chat about the kiln on Sat. Its slowly working its way to the top of my summer projects list. Looking forward to meeting up.

I'll take the short ash logs off your hands if you'll take some of this milled pine home for your shed roof ;).  I have plenty of ash for this bench though so please don't sweat it.  I just need to get it on the ground. The short sections are easy enough to come by as that seems to be the only way to straighten out some of these trees  :D