Looking for Equipment Suggestions

[Brad_bb]

One of the worst things if milling outside is the wind blowing the sawdust in your face. That will make you miserable.  I don't have much of that issue milling inside, but you still get bits thrown at your eyes when you are skimming the top of a log and not taking much off.

[jimparamedic]

What kinds of equipment do you have at this time? One of the things I seen with swing sawmills is the planer head and the sanding attachment. The more one machine can do at the start saves so you can save up for the more dedicated machines. And a band sawmill can be used to cut veneer and resawing. Just a thought run a circular mill but see how a band or a swing mill could really be good.

[longtime lurker]

The last thing I'd be buying if I wanted to sell finished wood products is a sawmill.

Would it be nice - sure it would. But if you asked me to prioritise a list it'd be right at the very bottom, down with the skidder and the logging truck.

Now at the top of the list would be things like a good bandsaw and/or panel saw, and a jointer, and a very good thicknesser: the things a woodworking shop needs to use every day.  Maybe that might include a wide bed belt sander, or mortiser, or a radial arm, or edgebander, or a 6 head moulder.... depends on what you manufacture. But if your income is going to come from selling a finished article the sooner you get the right toys to finish your articles the better

Then I'd be thinking about a kiln.... don't need much depending on your throughput but the ability to dry wood you buy green, or get milled for you would be great. The difference between buying green and buying KD can be a significant saving, and with custom sawing you get the same log turned into the sizes you want without having to tie up capital in gear that dont make money. Yeah if I ran a cabinet shop I'd be looking at a little DH kiln like the Nyle L53 or even one of those little Logosol units well before I looked at a mill.

See the thing is that if you're really good at doing finished articles then you wont have time to mill. And if you go through enough wood to justify a mill, including the support equipment to handle logs like a skid steer or forklift or whatever you get.... then you definitely wont have time to mill, but you might have a real good relationship with a couple sawmillers who will probably let you help cut your logs quite gladly so you can still say you cut your own.

I don't mean to be contrary here, but every bit of experience I have in this industry tells me that successful sawmills sell wood (at whatever degree of finish), and successful cabinet/joinery/woodworking type shops buy wood and value add it. There are exceptions - few of the guys above who've commented included - but it's a pretty accurate rule of thumb. The tree to finished article dream is great... but mostly its a commercial disaster because you get spread too thin equipment wise to do anything cost effectively.

When you're in a business - any business - the best place to invest your money is where you'll get the most return, or where you're going to save the most time.

Just my $0.02

[moodnacreek]

Well said, L.L. To go from tree to finished lumber is more for your own satisfaction not profit. For example if you had a kiln and 4 sided planner I could sell you my walnut and cherry [air dried[ very reasonable and would jump at the chance . In other words for you to do what I have done and take it to the next process is just too much in time, buildings and machinery.

[Brad_bb]

Longtime Lurker is correct.  If finished products is where you are going to make money, sawmilling is far from that process and there are a lot of steps and equipment in between that will take your time away from making finished products.  My previous comments were regarding equipment if you definitely are sawmilling.  You may want to saw just because you want to.  It's important to understand what is between sawing and finished wood working.  

You could make a business of sawing, or of just drying and machining, or of just making finished product(like furniture or whatever), and finishing (staining and finishing) could also be a business unto itself.  You've got to pick what you want to do and know that you don't have time to do them all(and be profitable unless you have a really big company).

[Magicman]

Very, very good comments and suggestions.  Much depends upon your age, need for income, available time, and business profile.

My first year of sawing taught me that I only wanted to saw.  No logs, slabs, nor sawdust.  No lumber, drying, nor inventory.  No loader, edger, lumber shed, nor selling.  Portable custom sawing only.  I just saws um and leaves um.  ;D

[jimparamedic]

Starting small going from tree to finish can also give you the chance to see what you want to do what the best market is and what you want to do the most. And invest in the equipment for that area. Or stay a hobby and make a little extra cash which is what I do.

[Magicman]

Starting with a standing tree, each step taken adds value, but each step also adds it's own expense that the added value must justify.  That expense may be your time, equipment, or hired labor but it must turn a profit. 

There is an old adage that says:  "You can run with the big dogs or sit on the porch and bark."

There are several variations but the result is the same. 

[jimparamedic]

Also Nothing ventured nothing gained.

[longtime lurker]

I never set out to go where I am as a sawmiller... I was a bulldozer guy so had some access to logs from that, and I wanted to build a timber frame house, maybe a boat after... so buying a portable mill wasn't a bad idea it seemed. And the week after I got the thing a guy I know rings up and wants some landscape sleepers, and then another call, and another... and here I am.

Now I sit here and look at that statement and wonder what the hell happened. How did a part time gig turn into 80 hour weeks, a broken marriage, industrial land and warehousing,and a situation where I can't afford to turn the thing off or I starve but I need another sawline to keep up so i got to borrow again. Just did I guess - I like sawing wood, and I'm good at it. And I'm good at the logistical side that makes growth possible, and I'm a worker.

But I'm rather jealous of Lynn: he found a way to do all the bits I love without the bits I hate.

The problem with logs is that mostly they can't wait for you to make up your mind. You pay to put a log in the yard and you have to do something with it, which means you need a plan before you start. And you also need a plan for the parts of the log that won't make plan A/B/C/D right down to firewood and chip. And I think that's why buying a mill to complement a woodwork shop is a bad idea.... a whole log can't be 8 x 2's and throw the rest out because it doesn't pay to do that. If you need a pack of 8 x 2's (or any other size) it's just easier, more convenient and far more cost effective to ring a guy who cuts wood all day every day and order it so you get the sizes you want in the quantity you want without a pile of sawdust to dispose of and a whack of 3 x 1 you have no real use for.

Theres also a time consideration... because its not just the time to saw a log, or enough logs to get what you need for the project you have in front of you. It's also time to source logs, and time to handle the product, and drying time. Even if you own a kiln you're still looking at a minimum 3 month cycle before you start the project, and in the modern business world mostly thats too slow and your order turns into an unhappy customer because they wanted their whatever in a couple of weeks not 6 months. So the way around that is inventory, you need to be sawing for projects that you havent got yet, which means sheds, which means more space. Then your logging contractor doesnt want to go to work this week because its raining but you gotta have logs to fill holes in inventory, so you buy a skidder and..... easy to see how i wound up where i am aint it?

You like to work with wood? Spend time in the industry and find the part you like doing, whether it be logging or french polishing or any of the steps in between. Then go at it hard and buy a small amount of good equipment for that specific area not a large amount of junk to cover the whole value chain. Don't be buying an entry level sawmill to see if you like it, spend your next holiday tailing out for a guy that saws all day every day and find out that way. Of all the decisions I regret since starting in this game, aside from buying a logging truck the worst was that initial Lucas Mill purchase. Not that it wasn't a good thing - I've still got it after all and use it sometimes - but because had I known what was ahead I'd have been better to spend double the money on a 2nd hand fixed mill and saved myself three years at the start. That was my entry level mill to see if I like it, and cut a couple boards for some projects I had... :D

Best advice I can give ya.

[nybhh]

"When you are a hammer, everything looks like a nail."

I love that saying and when you have a sawmill, everything wants to be made out of ... whatever species you have access to.

Unless you have a forest of walnut trees growing on your back 40, a sawmill may not do squat for your wood working hobby/career.  What species do you work with and do you have access to logs of that species?  If you are serious about woodworking, check to see if you have a hardwood log dealer in your area.  Trucking is expensive but if you do, you can save a LOT of money milling and drying your own lumber if you have access to the logs you need.

With that said, I LOVE having a mill but mine was a landowner management investment more than a revenue/profit investment.  A way of utilizing some tsi cull trees, turning 20 years worth of ash firewood into 5 years worth of ash firewood with all the ash lumber I could ever use, recladding outbuildings etc.  i swear it feels like we are building new outbuildings now to use all the pine we cut but it is better than wood rotting in the woods if you can turn it into something that separates us homo sapiens from rest of the animals roaming the planet.  Life is short, if you can afford it without hurting your future or your family, you'll love having a most amazing hammer.

[nativewolf]

The last thing I'd be buying if I wanted to sell finished wood products is a sawmill.

Would it be nice - sure it would. But if you asked me to prioritise a list it'd be right at the very bottom, down with the skidder and the logging truck.

Now at the top of the list would be things like a good bandsaw and/or panel saw, and a jointer, and a very good thicknesser: the things a woodworking shop needs to use every day.  Maybe that might include a wide bed belt sander, or mortiser, or a radial arm, or edgebander, or a 6 head moulder.... depends on what you manufacture. But if your income is going to come from selling a finished article the sooner you get the right toys to finish your articles the better

Then I'd be thinking about a kiln.... don't need much depending on your throughput but the ability to dry wood you buy green, or get milled for you would be great. The difference between buying green and buying KD can be a significant saving, and with custom sawing you get the same log turned into the sizes you want without having to tie up capital in gear that dont make money. Yeah if I ran a cabinet shop I'd be looking at a little DH kiln like the Nyle L53 or even one of those little Logosol units well before I looked at a mill.

See the thing is that if you're really good at doing finished articles then you wont have time to mill. And if you go through enough wood to justify a mill, including the support equipment to handle logs like a skid steer or forklift or whatever you get.... then you definitely wont have time to mill, but you might have a real good relationship with a couple sawmillers who will probably let you help cut your logs quite gladly so you can still say you cut your own.

I don't mean to be contrary here, but every bit of experience I have in this industry tells me that successful sawmills sell wood (at whatever degree of finish), and successful cabinet/joinery/woodworking type shops buy wood and value add it. There are exceptions - few of the guys above who've commented included - but it's a pretty accurate rule of thumb. The tree to finished article dream is great... but mostly its a commercial disaster because you get spread too thin equipment wise to do anything cost effectively.

When you're in a business - any business - the best place to invest your money is where you'll get the most return, or where you're going to save the most time.

Just my $0.02

@longtime lurker  some great insight today

[YellowHammer]

Each step adds profit, and profit margin.  I own a sawmill, but also buy other wood at all stages of completion.  So for one species, I may start from logs, due to rarity and value while for another species, I may get it wholesale, kild dried, planed and and edged and just cut the pallet bands bands and resell it. It just depends.

QS white oak is a good example.  For it, I buy the log, process the wood, yield huge profits, which is paying for basic royalty of knowledge and technical expertise.  Quartersawn Sycamore is another great example.  Buy the log for 35 cents per bdft and sell the lumber for $6.  Nobody here quartersaws sycamore, and nobody else will buy the large logs I do, so I have an exclusive market because no one else will do it, or can't do it, and therefore I yield an excellent profit.

On the other hand, I can't tell you the last time I've bought Poplar logs to saw and sell as standard width 4/4 boards  I can buy high grade FAS and better boards for just about the same price I can buy high grade logs.  So why waste time and effort sawing them?  As a matter of fact, add 15 cents per bdft and I can have those boards kiln dried, also.  So there's no reason for me to make vanilla ice cream, when I can go anywhere and buy it, wholesale, cheap.

We sell about 20 different species of wood, each at different widths and thicknesses, and each variation gets an evaluation of where in the process we need to acquire it and what we have to do to make it the best quality and yield the highest profit margin.  

[Ianab]

From a hobby perspective, I can do the whole "start with a standing tree", and make it into a table / bed etc. So it can be done. I wouldn't try and make a living, because the hours put into being a jack of all trades, and having to work with limited equipment makes the process too slow.  For a hobby you can spend the day wrangling a single decent log into boards. If you can borrow a decent tractor you can do 4. But to make a living, you want to do 8.
 
So then you start needing more people and better equipment.

One of our IT clients runs pretty much a full process operation. So they have their own log truck, sawmill, kilns, treatment plant, retail store and a building division, up to having them assemble a kit-set house on your site. But they have about 50 staff, and all the needed equipment to do this.

But from a hobby point of view, it can be done. I have spent less on my sawmill and basic wood tools than my buddy has on his fishing boat. I tell him I've sawed more boards than he's caught fish. :D  So, a manual sawmill, some basic tools to handle logs, (winch etc?), you can air dry and make a drying box or simple DH / solar kiln. Then you are into basic woodworking territory. But yes there is more tools and more skills you need.

[jimparamedic]

In the end it comes down to making a profit you can be happy with and still love what you are doing.

[The MN Loon]

Man! I blink for a second and there are a huge amount of replies! I'm going to work through these and get backt your specific questions. 

Thanks for the responses@

Chase

[Old Greenhorn]

Man! I blink for a second and there are a huge amount of replies! I'm going to work through these and get backt your specific questions.

You've gotta pay attention around here if you want to keep up. ;D ;D
When you ask a question you should expect an answer and sometimes more than you thought you asked for. It's part of your guided discovery into learning what you want to learn. ;D :D
 Seriously, there are a lot of smart and experienced folks here that will do their best to help you out. I have seen more than a few folks do a 180 turn about in their thinking based on suggestions they got here and been very happy for it. I myself are among them. I can't even begin to list the major help I have gotten here, all one has to do is assimilate it and be clear on what their goals are in specific terms. The more they know, the more they can help. I am still not really clear precisely what your plans are and what you already have to work with.
 Good luck.

[moodnacreek]

Only problem is those who know the most say the least.

[Old Greenhorn]

Well @moodnacreek you could be right. But I think the ones that know the most are waiting until the direction and questions get a bit more specific. Glad you chimed in, I was trying to remember 'who was the member with a mill in Orange county'. Mystery solved. You are another mill that @MN Loon will be passing on his drive north to Cairo.

[moodnacreek]

Well @moodnacreek you could be right. But I think the ones that know the most are waiting until the direction and questions get a bit more specific. Glad you chimed in, I was trying to remember 'who was the member with a mill in Orange county'. Mystery solved. You are another mill that @MN Loon will be passing on his drive north to Cairo.
Because I am a fixed circle mill with a lot of machinery [for a very small mill] built up over many years, I did not chime in as this mess here is overwhelming to a beginner. He and others would be welcome if I was contacted, and not away from home.

[The MN Loon]

Alright, so where we go, I'll start from the oldest to the newest and address each post -

As an aside, because it appears to be a general question that more than a few people have:

I am looking to find logs, cut them into usable lumber, and then use that lumber. I plan on using that lumber to make things like furniture (Some ideas I have are a stand-up bar/Hutch, tables, a book case for my record player / record collection) etc. and NOT for things like siding/framing etc. The ultimate goal is to turn my current wood shop into a full-time wood-working hobby and eventually into a business that sells the things I make

I have the basic sawing equipment, a table saw, a circular saw, a jigsaw, a sawzall and a chop saw currently. I could probably find a few more things in my father-in-laws garage, but those are the things I know I have currently. 

I am starting at the very beginning of my sawyer journey, but those are my plans, I hope that clears things up, happy to answer any questions. I am quickly learning that I have entered into the sawdust zone ;)

Yellow Hammer - 

I think ideally I would love to be at the stage you are, but I think you're a few light years a head of me at this point, but that doesn't mean I can't learn a ton from you! How did you start/get into the business?

Brad_bb - 

As I don't so much are about the quantity (at this point) as much as the quality. Because I will be using it to make things and then may want to sell those things, I think I'm ok with a manual mill. Having said that, I love the idea of a very wide slab, but that also requires a lot of other things (other than the mill - you need a tree for instance, and a way to get the tree to the mill etc. which would be great if I was selling lots of them, but at this point I think I would be more inclined to glue a few pieces together for the same effect. Is there a "standard" mill size? Do you find that having a bigger mill provides the value over the increased cost? Also, do you think extensions are necessary for what I have described? If you are milling lumber, that's likely why you would need a long slab, but I'm not so sure I would need it (but I could be wrong)?

I'm sure it's obvious, but why would you want a drywall knife?

Sawdust I plan on having a wall-mounted vac with floorboard vents in my shop and a dust collection system of some kind. Does this sound feasible? I then plan on having ample tinder, however do you think that it will be too much to set aside (I have a lot of bonfires in the summer) and would thus recommend a burn barrel?

Finally, are the bunks for holding wood once it's dried?


Tiogajoe -

Sounds like you and I are in the same boat! What are some of the issues with having a manual mill that you have run into? 

Longtime Lurker -

Fantastic insight. I haven't quite figured out if I want to turn the finished products into a business, or the milling into the business, these are things I hadn't thought of until just now. You make a good point about the kiln though, cost saving, and if I get into milling I will need one anyway, so that is up at the top of the list. So let me ask you this, because you have opened a can of worms - start to finish, what is the process from taking a tree and turning it into something and what is involved (Brad_bb went into it briefly sawing - machining - value add manufacture - finishing)? That's a fairly big question, so anyone can jump in to answer. 

Magicman -

I first have to ask, do you really just find fallen trees, mill them, and leave a stack of cut lumber??

To your questions age (33 - young), need for income (ideally this would become a business, but at this point I have a job that allows me to entertain this as a hobby), available time (my wife is probably a fan when I'm out of the house, so ample?), and business profile (tbd - still working out what I want this to become).

Jimparamedic -

I think you're onto the same line of thought as I am, I'm trying to figure out where my true passions are because I like everything, so I need to start small.

nybhh - 

Landowner management investment, can you expound on that? Yet another avenue I hadn't thought of, helping people manage their property. I grew up in Minnesota where there is ample land and lumber, so maybe there is a business in helping people 'control' nature?

YellowHammer -

Do you go out and source the wood yourself? I like your plan very much. I think too often we get silo-ed into one way of thinking. I'm a big picture thinker that likes to come at things from many angles. One of the things I was thinking would be beneficial with a mill is that after storms I could go around and scoop up free lumber (or even get paid for it!) that I could do things with. I think what you just described is a fundamental understanding of the whole process and where you are in it with each and every log, that way you know what it will take from you to add value to the lumber you want to sell. Sounds to me like I'll have many questions for you in the future!


Ianab - 

I like where your head is at, although I'm not a huge fan of Marmite ;) having said that, I would love to turn this into a business, but at this point it is more of a hobby. 


Alright, I think I've responded to everything, if I missed you I'm sorry, I'm sure I'll have more questions, but my keyboard needs a break :P

Thanks as always for your help! FYI, I'm headed towards the Catskills in the next few weekends if anyone is up that way (Cairo/Kingston) I'd love to see what you have set up.

Chase

[Old Greenhorn]

....

The ultimate goal is to turn my current wood shop into a full-time wood-working hobby and eventually into a business that sells the things I make

I have the basic sawing equipment, a table saw, a circular saw, a jigsaw, a sawzall and a chop saw currently. I could probably find a few more things in my father-in-laws garage, but those are the things I know I have currently.

.........

nybhh -

Landowner management investment, can you expound on that? Yet another avenue I hadn't thought of, helping people manage their property. I grew up in Minnesota where there is ample land and lumber, so maybe there is a business in helping people 'control' nature?

.........

Thanks as always for your help! FYI, I'm headed towards the Catskills in the next few weekends if anyone is up that way (Cairo/Kingston) I'd love to see what you have set up.

Chase

OK, knowing your goals and direction puts a finer point on things. Looks like you have enough to get started doing some damage ;D, but I can see you adding a planer and a joiner to that mix as you start to make stuff.
 The big issue you might want to think about is drying and sterilizing your wood, at least a little for now, because it is a big step, a lot of work, more space, and a lot of knowledge to be acquired along the way. But you are not alone, there is another local guy on the same road who I think will be building a kiln in 2020. He already has a lot of knowledge and research under his belt. Form now, just keep it in the back of your mind as you go froward.
NYBHH talked about land management investment and I am sure he will come back with a response to clarify at some point, but he and I communicate fairly regularly and have discussed this at length in person. I can't speak for him, but I believe what he meant was that a landowner you can make decisions about whether to have someone do work for you to manage your property, rent equipment to do it yourself, or just invest in your own equipment which will allow you to do a lot more over a period of years than the occasional rental. I know he does this very well, laying out the cost of planned projects, then calculating costs to see if it is more economical to just buy the equipment and have it for other projects. Hence his mill has already produced more value in lumber for him than the cost of the mill and he can now build other thing 'for free'. HE is playing a long, well planned game and form what I see, he is very good at it. AT some point Brandon will jump in and correct any mis-statements I have made, but I think that is what he meant.
 Now you mentioned doing work for others and this is certainly a workable idea. In fact, it may be my retirement job, Brandon and I talked about that too, as he is short on hours and is willing to hire out, but can't find folks that come often enough to finish a job or there are other issues. A lot of folks like him would be happy if they could find somebody reliable and knowledgeable to help them out with TSI cutting and things of that sort on a small scale.
 I have found there are a lot of simple things I can do to help folks out with my mill and I have not looked for any of them. They just came to me. I don't think this is a unique experience. Now I am getting calls from people I don't know for things I don't have but I guess that's part of the game.
 As we discussed in the PM's, I am around this weekend and I have you penciled into the calendar in my head for a visit at some point. Looks like Saturday is the best day for me, morning is best. Check your appointments and send me a PM. Now that I understand your path I can tell you that I have a good setup to provide an overview of what you are looking for, it's ugly, unrefined, and has warts, but it covers most of your desired spectrum. I fell trees, move them, mill them, then make some 'stuff' with them. It is primitive, mostly hand work, but that is where most folks start. So in an hour or two we can walk from tree on the stump, through the mill, and up to the finishing shed. All very small scale. Then you can go find some guys that are much better and more refined. Assuming that all works for you. 
When you come wear jeans and boots. :D ;D :laugh: smiley_swinging_board

[Magicman]

Magicman - I first have to ask, do you really just find fallen trees, mill them, and leave a stack of cut lumber??

I only do portable custom sawmilling so what I "find" is a whack of logs that a customer has staged for sawing.  They will have a cut list indicating the different lumber dimensions so I set up and start sawing.  Yup, I leave a whack of lumber, a pile of slabs, and another pile of sawdust, so I saws um and leaves um.  

[Old Greenhorn]

I guess he found something more interesting.
;D