How the heck do I salvage this cookie? Help please.

Old Greenhorn · October 20, 2020, 07:47:22 AM

I had a customer in my shop the other evening looking at some of the stuff I had made when he spied this old cookie sitting in a corner.

It's white Oak and I cut it off a stump about 4 years ago. I have been using it in the shop as a repository for any epoxy I have left over when I am doing pours on other stuff. I figured over time I could stabilize it and finish it into something like a clock. It is weak and pithy and has a bunch of old bug holes. I didn't have any specific plans for it. It surely will never become anything robust. It is fairly big (for me) at about 26x 39".

If I whacked the 'points' on this with my fist I could probably snap them right off. Lots of airy, pithy areas for sure with not much weight.

Last night on a whim I rigged it up to do a filling pour in the V-notch you can see in the first photo, it took a lot to fill and some ran through, I will check it this morning to see if it sealed and how much I might need to finish it off.

All this brings me to my question. The client saw this cookie and offered me a stupid amount of money to make it into a table for him. I tried to talk him out of it explaining the condition of the wood and that it would never be strong enough to hold much more than a photo display, also that the piece itself had many major defects in shape, bad edges, etc and would cost a small fortune in epoxy just to make it workable. All that did was get him to raise his offer and concede that it would be a light duty 'art piece' to go in a corner with just flowers or photos on it.
So now I have to figure out how to salvage this thing into something that 'looks' like a high end corner table. We agreed on either simple hairpin legs or something out of the riteleg catalog of legs, but I think lightweight hairpins would suit this piece best and I will use rite legs on the bar he wants me to make for him (that slab is drying now).
I have some ideas on approaches I can use on this, but I will hold off on those so that I can hear what others would do with it. I need help and ideas to get this going. Keep in mind that I do not have a shop equipped for these fancy full epoxy pours and I don't want to fully encase it anyway. I also don't have the polishing gear to shine up a major pour like that, never even tried that. The top is not completely flat because of felling cut remnants, etc, but it is smooth, and he is happy with that too.
I am in the 'spit balling stage' here, so any an all suggestions will be helpful, just remember I am short on skills compared to most folks here.
Thanks

dougtrr2 · October 20, 2020, 08:12:43 AM

Maybe you should sell him the cookie cheap and let him find someone else to finish it off. You seem to have a lot of misgivings about this project and will probably never be completely happy with the end result. It is your reputation that will be out there. If it fails at a latter date I am sure the client isn't going to say "It was really an impossible task, but he did do his best". All the client and others will see is that you made something that failed. Sometimes walking away from a project may be the best solution.

But, if I was going to try to do something with it I would brace the the bottom of the cookie to stabilize it. Embedding some steel strapping 1/8" to 1/4" thick might be an option.

Good luck.

Doug in SW IA

btulloh · October 20, 2020, 08:25:18 AM

Quote from: dougtrr2 on October 20, 2020, 08:12:43 AMBut, if I was going to try to do something with it I would brace the the bottom of the cookie to stabilize it. Embedding some steel strapping 1/8" to 1/4" thick might be an option

Something like that to stabilize it would be my choice. Depends on the cookie itself. Maybe steel strapping routed into grooves, maybe a steel plate cut roughly to the shape of the cookie, maybe some 1/2" baltic birch. Trouble is, time and materials to do all that can get you upside down on the return on time for the price you're talking about it. If it takes more than 5 hours total, and more than $50 worth of extra materials I would not be happy doing it.

To me, that cookie should go in the stove or continue to be a repository for left over epoxy. But beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Good luck with it, however you proceed.

Don P · October 20, 2020, 08:29:38 AM

The beauty of punk is that is doesn't split as bad while drying. Surfboards are made from foam and glass and take a beating. I like the idea of reinforcing the underside and saturating it.

YellowHammer · October 20, 2020, 09:39:45 AM

I'd probably get a piece of nice plywood and cut a matching pattern well shy of the edge with a jigsaw or something, paint it flat black, glue it to the bottom with lots of epoxy and use that as a place to attach my legs and stabilize the entire cookie. Then you could finish the top whatever way you wanted, because the plywood is taking all the load from the bottom. Basically a plywood table with a cookie glued to the top.

Old Greenhorn · October 20, 2020, 12:33:19 PM

These are good ideas guys, thank you, they are getting the juices flowing. Straps underneath would make a big difference in my peace of mind. Keep in mind this isn't perfectly flat all around, so I don't know that I can make the plywood world. I am also shying away from routing out for steel because it requires some precision, plus the steel and it would have to land under the legs and the leg spacing will be a little erratic (3 legs). So I am thinking some 3/4 thick red oak in an uneven triangle with the points where the legs land. This seems pretty workable.
All my epoxy work has pretty much been fills, no bar top type stuff, nit sure how to approach that. I'll have to do some research.
The main thing I am concerned about is the edges. I had wire brush them a year or so back, but there is still some pithy inner bark i need to remove, and then how will it look if I painted epoxy on the edges?
Thanks for the input so far. I did another pour to finish that big v-notch off this morning and it seems to be holding.

Don P · October 20, 2020, 01:33:01 PM

One thing we would do on boats is just stick a piece of garden hose or shaped foam across a weak area and then lay glass and resin, forming a strengthening rib, it could even be strips of wood, anything that makes a bump, the deeper the rib the stronger to a point.

I'd epoxy everything, top, bottom, edges.

Nebraska · October 20, 2020, 04:02:30 PM

Just my opinion ....Take your time, and plywood the bottom that will provide a dam for the epoxy on top and better purchase for attaching the legs. Can you sand the underside enough to allow the epoxy to bridge the gaps between the cookie and plywood just kind of close enough smooth???. .....or it might be a good excuse to make a flattening sled and use a router to flatten it. It looks like it could be very pretty in the end.

doc henderson · October 20, 2020, 04:29:57 PM

all good ideas. i like the idea of putting fiber glass on the bottom to hold it together, and then saturate repeatedly with low viscosity epoxy. like a cedar strip canoe. the glass is barely seen, and can conform to the shape a little. you can add "wood four" (saw dust) to the epoxy for cracks and stuff on the bottom. if the wood under the glass layer will not hold a screw, drill it out a bit and fill with epoxy. I will try to update my progress on the bar top reinforced with epoxy. they half the thickness and weigh more. prob. 400 bucks in materials. they are much bigger although

regular epoxy with lamp black for color and thickened with sanding dust. pressed into the cracks, and later wiped with a rag and acetone to smooth out. @tule peak timber says the crack will be strong and never open up. these are old, I will get more later if there are good examples. you said he offered a bunch, it would be good to get and estimate on materials and make sure it makes sense.

Old Greenhorn · October 20, 2020, 04:57:36 PM

Ok, I understand that from my description that you guys are picturing something that is ready to fall apart and I would assume that too, but it's not quite that bad. I found a nice ash board that I ripped to 4" and planed to 3/4. I will make a triangle pattern of straps underneath and perhaps fill the whole thing in continuing the pattern. This will give both something more prettier and substantial. I'll do something on the edges with a router to finish off the straps. The ash looks pretty and planed our really nice. (I never get tired of seeing that.)
Yes, I am taking my time on this, no rush, just keep moving forward. Right now that slab is standing on edge in a position of comfort (Doc will get that) as the second heavy pour cures. One it's hard I will take a good look at exactly how flat that bottom is. Then I have to start working on the edges, they concern me as to how they will look when done.
Cost of materials is not too much of a concern for this one. ;D
Speaking of which, I had a short chat with Tammy over at riteleg and they are sending me some printed catalogs I lay in front of the client for his bar job at least. Not sure they have anything to fit this one. It needs to be a 3 leg job.

btulloh · October 20, 2020, 05:03:24 PM

Riteleg sexy singles. Made for three leg on odd shapes. May be a little too large for that cookie. Perhaps they have different sizes.

Old Greenhorn · October 20, 2020, 05:15:39 PM

Quote from: btulloh on October 20, 2020, 05:03:24 PM
Riteleg sexy singles. Made for three leg on odd shapes. May be a little too large for that cookie. Perhaps they have different sizes.

Good catch. I missed those! Look nice but might be a little heavy for this one. The client was thinking 24" legs to display photos or other stuff. When their catalog comes I will give it a good look. Maybe there is another project I can use those on.

btulloh · October 20, 2020, 05:21:33 PM

They are stout. I won a set in ff Christmas contest. They are well made and heavy duty. Probably better suited for a good sized bench.

thecfarm · October 20, 2020, 06:49:40 PM

Looks like a face with eyes closed and mouth open to me. I even see the nose!!

Old Greenhorn · October 20, 2020, 08:36:30 PM

Quote from: thecfarm on October 20, 2020, 06:49:40 PM
Looks like a face with eyes closed and mouth open to me. I even see the nose!!

Cfarm, I think you really need some help. ;D :D (but you did make me go back and look at the photo. :D)
Well tonight I guess I screwed the pooch. The second pour came out fine and I went to remove all the clamps and plates and there was one piece of plywood I used that stuck to the piece in question. I gave it one gentle tap sideways with a leather mallet and it snapped the pointed part of the cookie off.

That would be the one I just poured 20 bucks worth of epoxy into. >:( I could just toss it and round the thing off, but that would detract from what my client bought, so I went in the house, calmed down, had dinner, licked my wounds gabbed a beer and headed back out to the shop and mixed more epoxy.

I guess I am going to learn how well epoxy works as a glue... the hard way. SO I have it clamped and all I can do is wait until tomorrow and see what we have. If all goes well I will start some shaping sanding work and flatten out the area of my 'mess up'. If it doesn't go well I will start some shaping sanding and see how it looks, then contact the client for a decision.
I will say this, that epoxy held so well in the undesired area that I had to chisel it off and layers of plywood stayed on the cookie, they would not let go. Lesson learned... the hard way, which is how I learn best. ;D
This job is going to take a while.

Poquo · October 21, 2020, 06:47:52 AM

I use wax paper on clamping boards to keep them from sticking .

kantuckid · October 22, 2020, 08:09:00 AM

On my front porch is a three legged table made from an approximately 30" "cookie" of Catalpa. I didn't request it but my Mom saw a guy taking out a hedgerow in Shawnee Co., KS when she was working for Gallup polls and out and about. The trees had been bought off the horse wagon of a nurseryman selling seedlings to farmers in 1889, as it were. Mom knowing my wood fetish, ask for some wood and sent my youngest brother who ask if the guy would cut him and me a "cookie". Mine was ~ 4" thick and as you know Catalpa doesn't split tangentially, so a far more ideal species than White Oak for a cookie.
I used to build wrecked cars as a sideline and had a can of clear coat that was a bit old so mixed a bunch up and heavily coated the slab via pouring it on from the mix container. It isn't my ideal finish (I dislike glossy, piled on finishes) but does look like those sold as bar top finishes at that.
FWIW, I've also re-finished golf club heads using automotive clear coat and it works great for that use, sprayed on, not poured.

Old Greenhorn · November 04, 2020, 03:57:21 PM

Well progress is happening with this piece. I did starts for the bottom and they look good. The bottom is done now and when it dries I will flip it and begin final prep for the top pour.vpicutres in my gallery and on my other thread, so I won't repeat them here. I have now figured out how to hand polish the epoxy too with pretty good results.
My next question for the assembled gurus out there is what do you use for epoxy dies and where can you get small quantities to test with? Not on this project but an upcoming one I plan to create a "pond" which I would like to dye in a deep blue/green. Never done that either. Looking for some direction if anybody has some.
Thank!

DWyatt · November 04, 2020, 04:05:44 PM

Quote from: Old Greenhorn on November 04, 2020, 03:57:21 PM
Well progress is happening with this piece. I did starts for the bottom and they look good. The bottom is done now and when it dries I will flip it and begin final prep for the top pour.vpicutres in my gallery and on my other thread, so I won't repeat them here. I have now figured out how to hand polish the epoxy too with pretty good results.
My next question for the assembled gurus out there is what do you use for epoxy dies and where can you get small quantities to test with? Not on this project but an upcoming one I plan to create a "pond" which I would like to dye in a deep blue/green. Never done that either. Looking for some direction if anybody has some.
Thank!

Not sure what others use, but for small pours, I just go pick out a cheap nail polish that is the color I want. I typically use black for filling cracks & other defects.

doc henderson · November 04, 2020, 04:10:38 PM

most brands will show compatible stuff advertised along with it. I got a small 12 color variety pack from amazon to try. some are pigment. some are grains of sand . lots of good you tube videos reviewing different systems. I have friends that have done river tables with some creative skills, and along with you-tube, their first attempts turned out very well. I use japan lamp black pigment for cracks. I have added turquois and pine cone nuts as well, as you know.

kantuckid · November 05, 2020, 06:34:28 AM

Be careful using nail polish as it's a lacquer and might not be compatible with the other aspect of the finish.
As for polishing epoxy-The vehicle clear coat I used on my "cookie" was never polished just as often do not polish such coats on a vehicle paint job. if the painting area is dirty enough you'll have nits that must be fine sanded and buffed out though the best on a vehicles finish is one left as is.
Modern, wet/dry, extremely fine abrasive papers are the first step in polishing such a filling but only after it's been leveled via normal grit abrasives suitable for the task.

Old Greenhorn · November 05, 2020, 07:03:11 AM

Thanks for the heads up on the lacquer issue. Not sure how that would work, but in any event I would be doing some testing to develop the technique before using it on the actual project.
I am not using a spray clear coat. The top is going to be a single pour of 2 part epoxy resin which is very durable and easy to refinish if need be over time. The top surface itself should remain untouched, but I will have to do some blend sanding on the edges just because of the nature of this job.
Likely I will get one of those sample kits like Doc suggested. I was just wondering if there was any difference in pigments and selection of type. It is down the road, but I am starting to think about it.

kantuckid · November 05, 2020, 07:47:44 AM

Automotive clear coat I used on my cookie I poured, not sprayed as would be normal.

Google "Klasscote" as an e.g. of clear coat epoxies usable on many substrates-> including wood.
I've never used that brand because I kept automotive finishes on hand when I was active in wreck repairs and stayed within a system of auto repair finishes sold near me for compatibility & access. There are several quality levels of auto clear coats too and the cheaper stuff is good enough for wood shop use. House of Kolor is a lower cost brand I've used as are the name brands in the cheaper choices like PPG, DuPont and Sherwin-W..
My general point is to suggest that there are far more choices than just what's seen in box stores or woodworking supply catalogs.
Other aspects such as shipping cost is a large factor with many finishes as is the EPA and city/state laws on emissions. If you live in a low VOC state or buy from a box store who sells from a low VOC warehouse supplier then you are often limited with many types of finish material.