New Draconian law hurts small mills

[RAYAR]

They've backed off on the new regs last week, we are back to 625 sq foot space now.

It's 215 in Nova Scotia, well with the cost of living rising drastically and the many people now living in camper trailers and "tiny" homes now maybe we the people can push back at these ridiculous by laws. Like I say can't do nothing these days without everyone trying to dip their hands in your pockets..... You can't legally off grid in Nova Scotia, literally force you to play into consumerism.

If you're hooked up to the grid and you don't pay your bill, what happens?... Problem solved! ;)

[longtime lurker]

Most commercial mills.have a grader on hand, and usually if there's mills.around there's the even more elusive retired grader.

Hardest part is finding that guy I guess. For mine I like to help people, and I've found it handy to be on good terms with the other local sawmillers... been a time or two when I've bitten off moren I can chew or had a breakdown on a tight deadline and those guys have cut enough for me to take some pressure off: what goes around comes around etc etc.

One thing I do know is that if there was just one thing the Australian timber industry has right it's our grading system. It's simple, and it's written to be applied by sawmillers..Any experienced mill hand should be able to grasp it with a couple days training. Compared to it the NHLA grading rules are an overcomplicated mess, and I hate grading for export because of it

[SwampDonkey]

I know a grader who worked for a large commercial softwood mill and didn't even know who the regional grading authority is. How are you then a bonafide grader? Don't they test you? Tells me there was some process the mill can skip to get a body on the grading line. Self regulation is just a loop hole for competitive advantages. : That mill is no longer in existence, and not because of the grading per se. It was one of the largest sawmills in the province run by a guy who used to be a higher up in a food processing company. That company also was invested in the mill at the beginning, but pulled out.

[Don P]

Dimensional (structural) lumber grading is an audited process. This is different than NHLA, appearance, grading. The mill graders and the mill stamp are not allowed to moonlight off of the audited mill's property. That is so the auditing (check) grader from the agency can drop by unannounced at any time and check their work.

When you need offsite grading done call the agencies that service your area. They send out one of those check graders who is allowed to stamp offsite.

From an engineering standpoint grading establishes strength groups. Without grading it is hard to know how far a stick of wood can effectively span. When I see a few stacks of wood and a story about their high quality I certainly wonder where the below grade wood is. That is what an independent third party sorts through.

[Don P]

I'm sawing lumber for a job now, and we have a new building official. We are trying to find a path forward. He said that we will follow the law and so I did some research to make my case. This is from the letter I sent last week;

I'm trying to dig up some reading on lumber grading requirements. I'll try to sketch some this weekend.
First the general requirement in the VCC2015
[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]2303.1.1Sawn lumber.
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Sawn lumber used for load-supporting purposes, including end-jointed or edge-glued lumber, machine stress-rated or machine-evaluated lumber, shall be identified by the grade mark of a lumber grading or inspection agency that has been approved by an accreditation body that complies with DOC PS 20 or equivalent. Grading practices and identification shall comply with rules published by an agency approved in accordance with the procedures of DOC PS 20 or equivalent procedures.

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2303.1.1.1Certificate of inspection.
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In lieu of a grade mark on the material, a certificate of inspection as to species and grade issued by a lumber grading or inspection agency meeting the requirements of this section is permitted to be accepted for precut, remanufactured or rough-sawn lumber and for sizes larger than 3 inches (76 mm) nominal thickness.

My argument on interpretation, I or an engineer would be capable of meeting the "or equivalent" portion of that requirement. I trained at Timber Products Inspections, an accredited grading agency, alongside the line lumber graders and am versed in DOC PS-20 and the National Grade Rule.

 In those rules the limit of liability for failure of lumber graded by one of those agencies is replacement of the failed board, that's it. The limits of liability for myself or an engineer are not so forgiving. I actually have skin in the game. Of that stack of lumber I showed you we felled trees and sawed until I had 17 boards that met or exceeded grade, I'm not pushing the line. When it is dry we will regrade and cut down the rest into smaller dimensions that meet grade.

From Chapter 1 of the VCC2015
[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]112.2Alternative methods or materials.
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In accordance with Section 36-99 of the Code of Virginia, where practical, the provisions of this code are stated in terms of required level of performance so as to facilitate the prompt acceptance of new building materials and methods. When generally recognized standards of performance are not available, this section and other applicable requirements of this code provide for acceptance of materials and methods whose performance is substantially equal in safety to those specified on the basis of reliable test and evaluation data presented by the proponent. In addition, as a requirement of this code, the building official shall require that sufficient technical data be submitted to substantiate the proposed use of any material, equipment, device, assembly or method of construction.

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[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]112.3Documentation and approval.
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In determining whether any material, equipment, device, assembly or method of construction complies with this code, the building official shall approve items listed by nationally recognized testing laboratories, when such items are listed for the intended use and application and, in addition, may consider the recommendations of RDPs. Approval shall be issued when the building official finds that the proposed design is satisfactory and complies with the intent of the provisions of this code and that the material, equipment, device, assembly or method of construction offered is, for the purpose intended, at least the equivalent of that prescribed by the code. Such approval is subject to all applicable requirements of this code and the material, equipment, device, assembly or method of construction shall be installed in accordance with the conditions of the approval and their listings. In addition, the building official may revoke such approval whenever it is discovered that such approval was issued in error or on the basis of incorrect information, or where there are repeated violations of the USBC

There's the opening for an engineer's letter of approval.

At the end of the day though we all need to be comfortable with what I'm doing.  So to wrap this all up, mull this over, I can answer just about anything related to grading and how it and the process work if needed, think about the underlying intent of the code and what would make you comfortable in meeting the spirit of the code. I'm good with whatever you decide.

He is allowing us to have a local engineer check the grade and write a letter. In our situation this is cheaper than calling in an agency grader. I do understand having an impartial set of eyes checking me so I think we have met the intent and covered everyone's behind.

[mike_belben]

Grader for hire..  Guaranteed your pecker poles and ant sticks will pass. 

;D
















Id hate to see what the bottom choice looks like. 

[Don P]

A good example from the bottom end Mike, not saying I'm interested in buying that but in the interest of, let's take that apart.

1st, was there a grade stamp?
I see on the sales sticker a grade is listed... but that ain't a stamp. Is it stamped and by whom? Top Choice is a brand not a grade.

Next, where does Std&Btr fall in the hierarchy of grades?
SS, #1, #2, #3, Stud, Construction, Std, Utility... 1 grade off the bottom. For structural use stud is the bottom grade. For non structural, that is, non load bearing, you can keep going down... if desired. In other words you won't find this grade in a span table.

What do the grading rules allow in Std?
122c. "STANDARD" LIGHT FRAMING Characteristics permitted and limiting provisions shall be:
Checks - seasoning checks not limited. Through checks at ends are limited as splits.

Knots - not restricted as to quality and are permitted in the following sizes or their equivalent displacement: Nom. Anywhere on Holes Width Wide Face (Any Cause) 2" 1" 3/4" 3" 1 1/2" 1" 4" 2" 1 1/4"

Manufacture - Standard "F." See Para. 722f.

Pitch & Pitch Streaks - not limited. Pockets - pitch or bark - not limited.

Shake - if through at ends, limited as splits. Away from ends through shakes up to 2' long, well separated. If not through, single shakes shall not exceed 3' long or 1/4 the length, whichever is greater.

Skips - hit & miss, with a maximum of 5% of the pieces containing hit or miss or heavy skip 2' or less in length. See Paras. 720e, f, and g.

Slope of Grain - 1 in 4.

Splits - equal in length to 11/2 times the width of the piece.

Stain - stained sapwood. Firm heart stain or firm red heart. Not limited.

Unsound Wood - small spots or streaks of firm honeycomb or peck are limited to 1/6 the width. In 2" lumber, any other Unsound Wood is limited to a spot 1/12 the width and 2" in length or equivalent smaller.

Wane - 1/3 the thickness and 1/3 the width, full length or equivalent on each face, provided that wane not exceed 2/3 the thickness or 1/2 the width for up to 1/4 the length. See Para. 750.

Warp - light. See Para. 752. White Speck - firm, 1/3 the face or equivalent.

That is some seriously ugly manufacture, what does paragraph 722f say about Standard F, there is no G, this is the bottom...

f) Standard "F" Manufacture admits: very heavy torn grain; raised grain; very heavy loosened grain; heavy machine bite; machine gouge; heavy machine offset; chip marks; knife marks; medium wavy dressing; medium mismatch.

By the looks of it this may well be within that grade. If you are in the market for some very low grade poorly manufactured lumber this is the pile to go to. That is not a grade I would have any use for or would order and I'm happy that it didn't get put in a log run pile with the upper grades. Why do they sell it, well, somebody must want it for some project, mailbox posts, fence? Who knows. This is why there is a sort. Not everything on the shelf at the lumber store is intended for building with. Hope that helps clarify things a little.

[Ianab]

When I see a few stacks of wood and a story about their high quality I certainly wonder where the below grade wood is.

Locally the inevitable stack of low grade usually either gets gets sold as "utility" grade. Someone will buy low grade lumber, even if it's just to build a chicken shed, concrete boxing or pallets. 

Or it can be re-manufactured. An optimiser / finger joiner can quickly turn a pack of "junk" lumber into 3/4 pack of high grade pre-primed joinery profiles. All the defects end up in the firewood bin, which gets sold as, well because it's kiln dried and conveniently cut to 6-12" lengths. 

Where the stricter construction rules kicked in here was partly because of shady building companies buying that crap wood and using it in peoples houses, to save a few $$. Couple that with some shoddy design and construction methods, and we had some high end houses starting to rot out after ~10 years. While the reasons for the failures were many, it resulted in the building codes and regulations being tightened up. 

It wasn't the "owner builders" that were the problem, it was the larger construction companies that were cutting corners. This has been admitted by the industry, as the general consensus is that the owner builders tended to "overbuild" and be more picky about materials. Some of the larger contractors were more focused on price, to the detriment of quality. 

[Don P]

In a rustic furniture shop I worked at some of the wood was from reman. Dimensional 2x junk was resized to boards and then we were looking for short cuttings. 

For material quality I've found most owner builders tend to use better material, there are memorable exceptions. I had that conversation with one of the auditing graders and his boss. They said on the whole construction lumber from small home sawmills was better because the top grades were not removed in the sort. A true #2 is often not a pretty stick of lumber. The big boxes where Mike was roaming the aisles does specify another sort for appearance that has nothing to do with the structural quality of lumber. The drops from that sort are still on grade but usually go to discount lumberyards. I've had an owner buy from that source, the crew complained "this isn't #2" so we rolled through a stack and regraded it ourselves. Not a single stick failed to meet grade, it was definitely ugly but it was structurally ok. The prime had been removed. If you watch homeowners selecting lumber at the big box they will reject a clear stick with some wane and select one with a big knot and bad grain runout. It's not intent just ignorance and the big boxes try to accommodate them with their "prime" appearance sorts.

For technique, out of ignorance rather than intent, owner builders very often fall short. Not to say there aren't plenty of ignorant builders out there. One of they keywords that usually tips me off is the term "overbuilt". When I look around one place will be built far stouter than necessary and another is inadequate. A chain will break at the weak link. That is one advantage of the internet and also one of the bad things about it. We can talk about how something should be built but it is often over the roar of folks who say "I've been doing it this way for years". There is confirmation for whatever someone is looking for. Building inspectors, or the good ones, view part of their job as teaching and they tend to teach pro's more often and harder than owner builders. Where enforcement is non existent or lax it shows.

About the time you figure out what you're doing it's retirement time  :D

[Magicman]

When I see a few stacks of wood and a story about their high quality I certainly wonder where the below grade wood is.

My below grade wood goes into the cull pile for sawing into stickers.  It is not scaled as lumber.

[longtime lurker]

Structural grading here goes... Species & moisture content, which will give you the maximum strength group  possible. Then pick the biggest strength limiting characteristic ( or group of) which determines how many grades you drop back. You might have multiple issues... knot, slope of grain, checking, loss of cross sectional area... but grade is determined by the worst one on the theory that the weakest point fails first. So aside from remembering the weighting system for various issues it's fast and easy to apply.

Thing being is when you start playing with some of the serious eucalypts you can drop back 5 grades and still make general construction usage, we often cull timber that clearly makes grade just because it's that ugly it's unsaleable.

Seems to me from what I'm reading that the lack of a grade stamp is something that any old individual with a mill can rectify if they wanted to: All you have to do is apply and comply, right? Seems like a no brainer to me.

[mike_belben]

No one addressed that the stick in my hand is actually rotten and decomposed.  It weighed half what it shouldve, as well as some of the others at one end of the pack.  There was powder and chunks all over the floor that caught my eye.  


Im sure its just a fluke that it got through the system.

[Don P]

Yup, happens, everyone has to keep their eye on the ball.

LL,
No, reread reply #28, we have an overly regulated system.

I prefer the European, and your model of grading according to strength classes. It is simpler to understand and for the average person easier to work with. As we import more lumber ours is becoming a cluster of confusion. The secretary of the grades overseeing authority accidentally sent out a mailing the other day without hitting "bcc". I have all the big wheels emails in one list. Mighty tempting to speak my mind... as they ban my email from the list  :D.

Another set of piles on the current job is sheathing, graded under the board rules rather than dimensional lumber rules. We got into a nice sized log the other day. I had bucked it for dimensional but had misread its quality. I opened up with a couple of 2x cuts and we looked at each other and groaned, this wasn't going to make dimensional. Sheathing for our roof spans can be as low as #4. I pulled sheathing, stickers and pointed to a heap we are calling "form boards". We grab from that pile whenever we need a disposable stick that will end up in the weenie roast pile at the end of the job.

[HemlockKing]

About the time you figure out what you're doing it's retirement time  :D

There ain't enough time in a lifetime! I wish I had time to learn every single trade, I accept I will be ignorant in some. 

[Vautour]

Quote from: longtime lurker on May 28, 2021, 05:31:36 PM

I like to look at this from the other side of the coin: As a buyer of lumber... a person sinking their life's savings and a fair bit of income yet to be earned as well.. into a house.

I completely agree on this point,.. my beef is the ability to build a camp on your wooded property and you've got a mill but you can't build bigger than 215sq feet even tho it's registered as a camp/cottage which should come naturally with a "buyer beware" to the next owner,...                                                                                                                    Another thing!! when building a house you need stamped wood for...floor Joists, wall studs and plates, inside load bearings wall studs, and roof trusses,...meaning you could cut your own wood for.. outside walls, floors, roof, siding, some inside petitions (without having to use 4x8 sheets of plywood or OSB)... which would amount to about half of the wood needed for a house!!      

[Don P]

Technically sheathing is supposed to be graded but if #4 is allowed he would have to be a real jerk. 7/16" OSB was $44/sheet today here, that ugly log is worth at least $1.38/bf, not too bad.

PA has a camp exemption to the building code, make a fuss;
ucc-13.pdf (pa.gov)
Indiana County (pennsafebis.com)

[sawguy21]

I understand I am not allowed to build my own trusses (which I  know how to do properly) for a residence, only for outbuildings. Some areas require a licenced contractor to replace a water tap which is stupid but then some guys shouldn't be allowed to touch tools.