White Pine Framing Lumber

[mattgancz]

Greetings Forestry Forum:

I own an EZ Boardwalk Model 40, and I am building a home in Southern Vermont.  The house is a two story colonial with a one story wing off of the back built on an insulated concrete form foundation; I am putting the foundation in now.  I am planning on stick building the house with full dimension white pine.  My neighbor, who is very knowledgeable, has advised against building with white pine.  In his experience, he said, "White pine doesn't hold nails well, it tends to pop nails as it dries, and it makes a junky frame."  I would presume that popping nails is an issue regardless of species, but I am concerned about strength and quality.  Can anyone speak to using white pine as a framing lumber for a stick-built house?  If I am not dissuaded, are there any suggestions regarding the appropriate use of the span tables in the IRC --- i.e., can I just use the sizes listed under Spruce/Pine/Fir?

My town does not have an inspection.  Any other experience and suggestions are appreciated.  I am going to deck the foundation before winter; I will not be framing until next summer. 

[WhitePineJunky]

I haven't built a house with just white pine but a camp. Nailed it all up green, when it dried I never had any problems or nails popping out, but I used ardox/spiral shank nails, not because of me thinking WP is a inferior framing lumber, but because it going up green. 

[Old Greenhorn]

Well I am not much of a builder just stuff for myself. However I mill a lot of ewp framing lumber for others and here no complaints. Your lucky having no inspections, just check with your insurance agent that it will be insurable before you begin.

Wondering where you are in VT, right now I M rocking on a porch in whitingham.

[Don P]

The physics is pretty much the same whether Barney is looking or not, build to acceptable standards.

Nail holding in withdrawal is about moisture content first... ardox nails being the only nail exempt from serious derates if used in green lumber. After that density, diameter and depth of penetration are the major variables. White pine is low density ad lower strength. It would be inappropriate to use the SPF tables with white pine. There is a span calc at awc.org that has white pine on it, and they are the people that wrote the span tables in the codebook.

Grade is where white pine can really fail to satisfy. It grows 1-3' per year and throws a spray of branches in every direction, 2-3' up the board is another batch of knots, generally for the whole length of the board. The span tables use #2 and better for framing. Understand the grades and when to switch to sawing sheathing, which can be lower grade. Saw a few representative logs, grade them honestly and see if the mix works. small limbed woods grown older trees, yup. fast, large limbed field grown, doubtful.

My shop is white pine, I got tired of fighting powderpost so switched to carpenter bees. Within its limits it is fine, as is about any wood. A white pine beam is going to be larger than a white oak one and you are less likely to find that beam because of the nature of how the tree grows... there is the double whammy. It is one of the most stable and easy to work woods there is. The calcs in the toolbox, lower left hand column also have white pine in them. The equations and strength numbers came from the folks above.


visualize the cross section, how much is taken up by the defect. "quarter, third, half... 1,2,3". Clear is SS, select structural design numbers. 1/4 defective is #1, etc.  That might be a Lowes #2.


 

This is the bad thing about its growth habit, the annual whorls. As a boxed heart beam, that would have a hard time making a #3, there is not much undisturbed grain running thru that section.


 

Ardox are the "Threaded Hardened" nails at the bottom, any moisture content, strength is a 1.0, good choice in green construction. Do notice, some strength hits can be 75% using green lumber. A smooth shanked nail in straight withdrawal, installed green and then the framing dries, has lost 75% of its holding power... in any wood, but if you start low strength, and then lose 3/4 of that, it isn't good. Use the time to dry the wood and this table disappears.

[Old Greenhorn]

Well I figured Don P would be along at some point and now you have the definitive answer.

[mudfarmer]

Poor Don has a serious burden, I was waiting for that as well.

You're a good man Don! 

OP my house was built with green EWP, we have built camps and sheds and additions and garages, the commercial mill locally makes framing lumber out of it, locally it is what is used and has been for a long time. you'll be fine if it is good lumber.

[47sawdust]

It does  not have the strength of spruce or the nail holding power.That being said,here in Central Vermont I have been framing with pine for 50 years.Wall studs are not an issues,beams and floor joists I cut oversize.Maze type nails and/or screws will help with pop-outs.
Have a good time.

[thecfarm]

I sure don't know. 
But saying that I plan on a garage, someday.
I will be using full dimension lumber. And maybe more. I will be going all 16 inch on center.
Don P also said something about bracing? Can't remember the correct wood. But build a wall and put a 2X6 between each stud?

[Don P]

Burden, more like a hog in a wallow  :D
The best bracing is diagonal board sheathing or ply/osb sheathing, with those put blocking wherever there is a seam.

Most of the time I'm most worried about the nails loaded in shear, those are usually my critical ones, but pops are withdrawal and well, nobody wants a ceiling on their head either, This is the table that the previous table modifies. These are the withdrawal strengths based on dry wood, by specific gravity and nail diameter, per inch of penetration.

EWP runs around .35... Its about 1/3 the weight of water by volume.
SYP, closer to .50.  It floats halfway down in water. I usually shoot .131 nails so SYP has about double the nail holding.


 


And just as an aside, if you get dropped on the backside of nowhere and know nothing else about the trees around you, generally denser is stronger, stiffer, better nail holding... less stable, more ornery, higher shrinkage. It isn't the air in the wood that is shrinking it is the wood substance.

My folks spent about a year and a half in Moldova, next door to Ukraine and next in line if whack job wins. Dad had some of my tables but didn't know what species he was facing. Basically grade well and use the heavy stick where it counts.

[NaySawyer]

Seems in planking or ply sheeting should always fall over support .. not the other way around .. no?
Hardly worth trying to make tight joints when using green lumber.  Tongue and groove shrinks so much there is no longer any connection btwn boards.  Lots of space btwn roof boards to let mice through.

[mattgancz]

Thank you for the detailed responses, Don P; you sent me down a rabbit hole regarding withdrawal strength of various fasteners in various woods. 

I feel confident sizing the timber and grading it appropriately.  I double checked my original dimensions using the American Wood Council calculator, and I feel good.  I am less confident about my connections, and I am wondering if my neighbor experienced moisture cycling that deteriorated his withdrawal strength to an unacceptable level, and thus has a bad taste in his mouth for white pine.  That being said, if I follow the IRC fastening schedule, and use ardox nails, is that a good starting point?  The American Wood Council has a connection calculator, but I have not walked up its learning curve yet. 

If ardox nails are a good choice --- which if there is any moisture cycling, it seems like they would be --- can anyone recommend a source?  Are spiral shank, screw shank, and ardox nails all the same thing?  Maze nails has Hardened Post-Frame Spiral Shank Nails.  I presume this is the same thing.

[Southside]

Many, many, if not most of the camps I have been in were white pine, frame, wall board, flooring, etc.  My old house was a Gambrel timber frame with 2x's between the posts and it was all white pine.  Most of those camps were in an area that would see 10' of snowfall annually and I can't think of one that ever fell from the snow.  

[ladylake]

 I'd bet billions of bf were used for building  with white pine, your neighbor is full of it.  Steve 

[thecfarm]

Would galvanized nails work? 
My FIL won't use them because they are hard to pull out.  : 
That's the whole idea of using them, I think.

[MattM]

99% of what I build on my property is done with EWP. That's all I have on my property that's big enough to get lumber from. The first first 30-40ft of each of my trees is clear and makes beautiful lumber.

I usually put up an outbuilding or two every year and even my house is sided with white pine and it's all holding up great.

I only use galv ardox for building. I don't know if its the acidity of the sap, my climate or a combination of both, but if i use non galvanized nails and pull one out after 2-3 years then most of the metal has disappeared. This even happens with interior nails. Galvanised nails don't have that problem. It's well worth the extra cost (for me) for galvanized ardox.

[Don P]

The crunchy granola's are gonna be along any moment to spank you all for using any iron at all  :D

Pine doesn't cause rust, raw steel in green wood will rust. Galvy is one solution, dry wood is another. Both are fine, I like to start with dry wood because it has many other benefits as well. If you start with dry wood, you won't be making that comment about rusty nails. If you use green wood it takes special nails to save your butt. Use dry wood and special nails and you are gonna leave the competition in your wake.

Ray, the term used in the industry is "deformed shank" fastener, pallets lead the way. They found that anything that deforms the shank improves initial holding power. HDG, hot dipped galvy, it lumpy, bumpy, a good deformed shank. electro or mechanical galvy is a little rougher than smooth shanked, but not much. Pallets often "spot" the nail. if it is in a situation where they can shoot through to the other side they will shoot on a steel table or over a plate. The nail slightly breaks thru the far side, hits the steel and deforms the tip and shank in the hole. Then CC sinkers, cement coatings on smooth nails that are heat activated, the friction of driving softens the cement then it grabs fiber when you're done, on both hand drives and gun nails. And finally truly deformed shanks like ring shank and spirals. The nail doc explained that ring shanks had the highest initial strength but screw shank has the higher post pop withdrawal strength. Being as how I was the only carpenter in a room full of design pro's "When the roofers are throwing a load of shingles on the roof, they have done the initial pop of every nail in the roof structure?" Roofing nails are barbed, another deform. Oh, a full on clinched nail, there are minimum specs... I think 1/4" foldover, is good for a 25% increase in connection capacity. Whoops that is in shear...

But remember we are entertaining a comment, my structural nails are in shear, very rarely in withdrawal. And never in withdrawal in end grain, that is a prohibition. When I attach stuff to the frame the nails can be in withdrawal or combined... sheathing, siding, decking etc.

I have nothing against using improved nails, anymore economy does factor in, they are grabbing every nickel they can. One thing that stuck with me from the pallet lab, 5 more cents invested in the nails on a pallet doubled its life. If you want definitive, the fastener chapter in the NDS is a good read. Well it's open on top of the foodservice book I'm besposed to be reading  :D.

The phones are out... and so are cows, and so the day begins  

[KWH]

We been using galvanized ring shank 20 and30 penny on our farm building. If you put a board in wrong place you need to use a Sawzall to remove it

[Stephen1]

Great post. I am in the midst of sawing EWP for  my deck. I Have a mobile lumber grader coming next week to stamp my lumber. he says EWP is just fine and he uses softwood lumber schedule. The logs I bought off of the arborists look great, no visible knots on the exterior , but once you open them up and get inside them look out, it becomes B&B siding very quickly. I designed the deck to be all 2x8x10' and 12' with 6x6" posts. I am using nominal size and over cut by 1/8". I have been sawing  5/4 white cedar for the decking for the last 2 years. We do not get a lot of good white cedar around me so I buy cedar logs when I can. 
Years ago I built my deck out EWP , sprayed it with Thompson water seal and the frame lasted 30 years. 
This frame I will treat with the same stain as what is on my house. Timber Pro. 

I plan on building green. Let it dry in place. 
From what I am reading I should get my contractor to use galvanized nails. 
I could put the wood in the kiln but the kiln is busy making money. 
any other suggestions?

[Bruno of NH]

Ewp passes code in New Hampshire's native lumber law for building with.
I have used aspen/popple on many projects around my mill.
I saw nice clear logs and it makes excellent framing lumber. 
Note : I was a building contractor for over 30 years
Some of the stud materials I have seen in lumber yards over the years are sub par at best.

[Bruno of NH]

The other thing 
Forks around me are Eastern hemlock nuts
I'm not a fan 

[Don P]

Shake or something else? I prefer it to ewp because of the knot pattern and carpenter bees tend to give it a pass most of the time, I can usually get more good grade wood,,, if it isn't a series of shakey pipes. We were cruising my woods the other day my last big hemlock, a Carolina rather than an eastern, has died, so it is a non issue for me, I got the pine.

[Old Greenhorn]

We get calls and mill a fair amount of Hemlock and e are in real Hemlock country, it grows like weeds here, so it's nice to have an outlet because we have logs stacked 20' high an 24' long. :D. 

 BUT, that stuff is sure dang heavy though and everybody wants 2x material up to 12" or more. The main dislike for me is the stress. It's not every log but sometimes you get logs that will jump right off the cant from stress so you have to a lot of thinking and flipping, the former being not my strong suit, and the latter being a time waster. Some beautiful boards either get trimmed for use elsewhere, or made into 5 footers, then BTU's. ;D
 We get shake which we try to trim off before milling if we see it but sometimes (not often) we get fooled. We get shake in EWP too but rarely see it in the butt prior to milling of we would trim or junk the log.
 It's the stress followed by the wieght that I don't care for. But it is more rot resistant than EWP by far and dries into some nice wood it you want to make finished products out of it. IMHO ewp is the cheap plain vanilla wood for any kind of finished product and of course it has it's place, but hemlock is harder, more durable and can finish up nicer with the right care.
 For framing and sheds and utility work, EWP is hard to beat, cheap, fast, and light. But I hate when folks order furniture out of it.

[Bruno of NH]

There just isn't much good hemlock left in New Hampshire it's full of shake and rot . Big knots as well .
Southern Vermont still has some good hemlock left but the trucking to my place is to much. Folks want it , but don't want to pay for it.
They think it's some sort of miracle lumber  :D