Right to repair

[charles mann]

Southside, now that you mentioned it, yep, as with lycoming, just click and download. And if i cant get the manuals direct from the manufacturer, i can make a call to people that can make a call to get me authorized access. 

[Ianab]

Aviation in general does seem very different from how Deere was operating. Possibly because it's much more Govt regulated than ground vehicles.  You HAVE to be certified to repair helicopters etc. I wonder if there would actually be a liability factor for the manufacturer is they withheld important service info from owners or their mechanics?   

" Your honour, Cessna never told my client's now deceased Father to check the wings for cracks every 1,000 hours." 

Modern cars are all computerised of course, but most of them have been reverse engineered and generic scanning software written for them. Every small town mechanic here has an aftermarket scanner and can work on most modern vehicles. While Toyota / Honda etc might not specifically support the aftermarket scanners, they don't actively try and shut them down with lawyers either, and will happily sell parts to anyone that rocks up to the parts counter. Toyota doesn't actively try and STOP you fixing your car

I guess the proof will be in how Deere actually acts in the future. Will they make a basic version if tge scan software and an adaptor available, along with a "field service guide" (for a sensible cost)? If they do, then great. If not, RTR is back on the table boys. 

[chevytaHOE5674]

JD will already sell you "service advisor" software and it can read DTC's and has troubleshooting guides. But last version I saw had no ability to re-program or reset things, also no ability to run many diagnostic functions... let's see if that changes...?

I have a TEXA unit that has the capability to do almost what a full dealer tech version of Service Advisor will do... but there are still some procedures that require a JD tech with their software to perform. Thankfully very few run anything JD around here. Ha

[chevytaHOE5674]

Lots of talk here about the company John Deere that people really know nothing about. I'll leave it at that.

Coming from a guy who doesn't really know what mother Deere is about. I'll just leave it at that. Ha

[charles mann]

Ianab, 
Not everyone has to be certificated, but at least one in 5 does. That is at least for the FAA, the version of the faa for your area and europe and canada have different requirements. 
I think the EASA has even more strict guideline to the aspect of what a certed mech can work on compared to the faa. I may have easa confused with canada air transport or whatever its called up north. But yes, things in the air tend to have a more strict and government control program and guidelines vs. ground units, esp ag units. 




The previous attempted comparison of ag to aviation and access to manuals is like comparing watermelons to ground ribeye. 

[Ianab]

Not everyone has to be certificated, but at least one in 5 does.

Understood. But the business as a whole has to be certified, and can have some "supervised" employees that are actually handling the spanners. Someone has to be certified, and they are legally responsible for the folks they supervise. As you say, they can't have one qualified mechanic and 100 semi-trained monkeys. 

Main point is that there ARE regulations and certifications that apply. for obvious safety reasons. Different scenario for tractors. If you get a gearbox overheat on a tractor, that might be bad, but you just stop. Gearbox overheat in a chopper is BAD. 

[rusticretreater]

This reminds me of the shake out that the auto industry had as the cars all moved to computerization.  Techs would have to buy a diagnostic tool set that had the control tablet/device, swapable leads for different auto brands and insertable cartridges to handle each auto computer system.  

Some auto systems were great, others were pretty poor.  But the techs or their shops spend hundreds/thousands of dollars on these systems only to be chasing the next cartridge/lead set to expand their diagnostic capabilities and to keep up with design changes to systems.  It just got to be too much.  It was impossible to have everything for every car.

So the Auto Service Industry Associations got together on right to repair and pushed through OBD I and then OBD II(On Board Diagnostics) which is where we are today.  All cars globally support the standard.  This is now the shakeout that is going on in the heavy equipment industry.  They may be able to maintain their own diagnostic software setups, but access should improve.  They have profit pressures from China, etc. so they will fight to keep the revenue streams.

The companies whine, wail and complain that it will destroy their factory service and drive them to bankruptcy.  But car dealerships still are same old stealerships.  The equipment dealerships will survive but some consolidation might happen.  

[North to Alaska]

I have a 2020 Branson 4520r tractor. It has no computers in it. It's an old school, well built tractor that i can fix myself. I can probably fix most issues but the harder stuff can be taken care of by any competent diesel mechanic. 
Mind you, Branson doesn't make million dollar combines or very large tractors. But they do make them sized right for smaller jobs like moving hay bales.

Plus it was heck of a lot cheaper than a similar sized Deere or Kubata.

[SwampDonkey]

Farming is a tough gig with a lot of head winds and uphills. :D

[kiko]

I think the point is being missed by a lot of people.  When a service code is displayed by the machine then typically all the additional you need is the wiring schematic  
. I fix these John Deere skidders and bunchers with electrical issues including up to the L and L2 without service advisor or any scan tool , short of reprogramming modules. Even stationary regen can be performed though the cab module.  The issue is the obsolete circuit boards that can't be replaced or repaired because that is the information that is what Deere is holding back.  This information should become open source once obsoleted.  Otherwise, every thing needed to repair a jd has already been provided by jd.  The wiring schematic can be purchased separately from the technical manual cheap and  downloaded instantly. People are stuck on this idea that you need a (brand specific) scanner to even run down a trouble code.

[chevytaHOE5674]

The forestry equipment must be different in that regard. On the AG side in many models many functions like a forced regen can't be done thru the onboard diagnostics.

Also haven't run into or seen any issue with anything obsolete or un-repairable on the electrical side as of yet. I'm sure as time goes on that it might come. But that seems to be more common in forestry equipment, many machines from the 2000s have obsolete electronics and often require complete retrofit of sensors and controls to keep them running.

[charles mann]

Not everyone has to be certificated, but at least one in 5 does.

Understood. But the business as a whole has to be certified

Maybe down under. 
Iv got my business, partnered with a guy i was in the army with, which he isnt certificated as a mechanic, only as a pilot, but he works under my a&p and our business is not a certified repair station, nor do we have to be.  Not every aviation repair place is certificated.
 Again, things down under fall under y'alls version of the faa and y'all have different requirements. 
But i agree, an aircraft cant just pull over onto a fluffy cloud and call AAA, unlike ground vehicles. 
I figured after 20 yrs of avn wrenching, the butterflies in my stomach would go away when we are doing maint. They havent and a co-work explained it best. He said that "if the nervousness isnt there, you have no business wrenching or finally goes then its time to hang up the wrenches. The butterflies help keep us in check and we are giving 120% to the job and if anything feels wrong, stop, go back till it feels right and repeat. If it still feels wrong, go back again, but proceed with a fresh set of eyes till the work feels right with all parties involved." 

[snobdds]

This really doesn't do much.  It's basically signing an understanding to do something, not a do something. 

Deere is still dug in on this.  They, rightfully so, don't want to see China copy their stuff. 

[mudfarmer]

Here's another article about the situation: Right-to-Repair Advocates Question John Deere’s New Promises | WIRED

I thought this was the funniest part

[...]states that the American Farm Bureau Foundation "agrees to encourage state Farm Bureau organizations to recognize the commitments made in this MOU and refrain from introducing, promoting, or supporting federal or state Right to Repair legislation that imposes obligations beyond the commitments in this MOU."

;D

[SwampDonkey]

You can assume China already knows, maybe not something really recent. But this stuff isn't that secure.

[charles mann]

You can assume China already knows, maybe not something really recent. But this stuff isn't that secure.

I would agree, they probably already have some of it reversed engineered. 

[SwampDonkey]

You never know how much is true or fiction out there, but some really smart folks in the geopolitical foray think China is on the skids anyway. Personally, I wouldn't have a clue because some people feed you what they think might benefit themselves in some way.  I think a lot is speculative and conjecture. But hey, there are some great speakers and authors that make a living at both. Bound to get a hit once in awhile, just keep talking and writing more books. :D

[SwampDonkey]

Federal government in Canada announced right to repair on farm equipment and home electronics. But I think it's at the consultation stage first, not fully implemented. Also they plan on mandating USB-C charging ports for all new small handheld devices and laptops by the end of 2024. It's happening in Europe.

[sawguy21]

@Ianab You bring up an interesting point regarding aircraft service information availability and liability. When I worked for Canadian Helicopters we had an aircraft go down on final approach, the crew survived but were seriously injured. The Transportation Safety Board determined a simple roll pin on the fuel control failed allowing the engine to go to flight idle, they found the engine manufacturer was aware of the problem but failed to notify the operators. It didn't go well for them.