White cedar vs black spruce for swampy grounds

[WhitePineJunky]

Would white cedar be superior to black spruce in swampy forest areas? I know black spruce fairs better than most in wet areas, but what about white cedar? I'm not all that far away from white cedars natural distribution(50KM), there is none on my land, the swampy areas are mostly filled in with black spruce and red maple

[SwampDonkey]

White cedar is more tolerable, but white or black spruce will grow if the water table drops during the growing season. I have planted white spruce and black spruce on old ceder ground up here, some as a fill plant. I have a couple places that are wet where spruce won't grow. Also, tamarack will grow anywhere. But cedar is coming here and there on the wettest places. All my tamarack are planted trees on my place. I find the tamarack are weaker trees than spruce, they bend down easy. But doesn't help having bears climb them for cones. :D White cedar has an affinity for land with underlying limestone or calcareous shale.

[WhitePineJunky]

Oh yes I have fair bit of tamarack too I forgot those. They seem to grow pretty good in wet areas. 

I'm thinking of getting some white cedar seedlings and slowly transition some swamp areas to white cedar and maybe leave the areas that are somewhat Swampy, but dry out in the midst of the summer, black spruce. I'm not the biggest fan of black spruce, when it grows nice it's alright, but it's always growing layers and being scraggly it seems. 

[SwampDonkey]

Some places black spruce also gets a lot of witches broom.

[WhitePineJunky]

Some places black spruce also gets a lot of witches broom.

Got plenty of witches broom and broom rust around here, more likely to find a spruce with it than not. I could clear out all the spruce off my land and start over and I'd still end up with it as the whole area is riddled with it. I have no idea if it's just that bad in modern times or it was always prevalent even in the old Acadian forests or pre settler days. Ruins a good spruce fairly fast. I've been converting most of my softwood areas to white and red pine as atleast with those I only half to deal with weevil, the deeper root systems is better for the wind we receive here as well.

[Ron Scott]

If you have deer on your property, the northern white cedar will not survive.

[WhitePineJunky]

If you have deer on your property, the northern white cedar will not survive.

If they like them as much as red maple and stump sprouts they're doomed. I gotta try to get some established though

[KEC]

I've planted many White Cedar and the deer annialated them the first winter. The very few that survived were ones that I put a cylinder of woven wire around.

[Clark]

In these parts, which is a big disclaimer because things may be quite different where you are at, low ground white cedar tends to only occur in places where there is ground water flow and the pH is neutral-ish. As soon as it starts acidifying from peat then black spruce will take over. There is some evidence that the forested wetlands may cycle, very slowly, through different stages. And as noted, tamarack grows everywhere except the most acidic of sites.

Clark

[SwampDonkey]

Deer isn't a problem in my area as I have maybe 3 deer when there is no snow and none winter in my softwoods at all. Cedar is flourishing in my area.

Thick regen.



Spruce planted among cedars. You can see cat tails and sedge. That is all suppressed now with tree canopy.



I have a wild stand of cedar and white spruce seeded natural in it. I planted all the black spruce that I have, but the ground was always naturally stocked with white spruce, so I planted a lot of white spruce in the open ceder areas and there are also black spruce planted through it. The white spruce grows faster and fatter. Not faster in height, but girth. I like the skinny black spruce for rails to corduroy wet crossings for the SxS. And I use them for garden posts. Every tree has it's uses. ;)

[WhitePineJunky]

In these parts, which is a big disclaimer because things may be quite different where you are at, low ground white cedar tends to only occur in places where there is ground water flow and the pH is neutral-ish. As soon as it starts acidifying from peat then black spruce will take over. There is some evidence that the forested wetlands may cycle, very slowly, through different stages. And as noted, tamarack grows everywhere except the most acidic of sites.

Clark

Have a average of 4.8 soil ph here and the tamarack seem to grow exceptionally good

[WhitePineJunky]

Deer isn't a problem in my area as I have maybe 3 deer when there is no snow and none winter in my softwoods at all. Cedar is flourishing in my area.

Thick regen.



Spruce planted among cedars. You can see cat tails and sedge. That is all suppressed now with tree canopy.



I have a wild stand of cedar and white spruce seeded natural in it. I planted all the black spruce that I have, but the ground was always naturally stocked with white spruce, so I planted a lot of white spruce in the open ceder areas and there are also black spruce planted through it. The white spruce grows faster and fatter. Not faster in height, but girth. I like the skinny black spruce for rails to corduroy wet crossings for the SxS. And I use them for garden posts. Every tree has it's uses. ;)

The white cedars are beautiful trees. Tamarack and black spruce do make good corduroys throw it in the wet holes and it makes trail good for a long while 

[SwampDonkey]

Yeah tamarack will grow up here on sphagnum bogs with black spruce.  The water in those places is darker than brewed coffee. PH values between 3 and 5 are common. No cedar on that. You won't drink it. It will also grow on old field.