Figuring BF while sawing

[beenthere]

My old sawmill friend that I 'grew up' with, said he carried a $100 bill in his billfold, and he said it settled many a discussion, be it about scaling logs or measuring lumber. He would bring out that $100 (this was in the 50's so about two weeks' wages) and say he would back up his figures with it. Don't know if there was a certain tolerance or not.

[Larry]

Maybe I should take pics of my customers piles.

Wow...this thread sure went south in a hurry.  I don't think I want to see those pics. :D ;D :D ;D :D :D

I take a layer measurement and round down.  I've measured individual boards with a tape measure and not impressed.  Do ya round up or down?  Do you measure to closest 1/2" or 1/4" or 1/16"?  :

I dunno...when I sell green my tally is always high...when I send lumber to a custom kiln my tally is low. ???

Measure boards with a real grade stick is the best way...and then compare it to your layer measurement to see iffen that is accurate.

Little story...bought sassafrases from a little NW Arkansas sawmill.  I was pulling boards and the owner was keeping a tally...only thing is he didn't have any kind of measuring device.   Went to pay up and he wrote a receipt with the bf total, price per bf, and total...only thing is he didn't have a calculator.  How he do that? ;D  BTW if ya want to check out this story visit Hewlin Nations...Nations Hardwoods, downtown Prairie Grove, Arkansas.  Been in business since before the beginning of time.

[Kirk_Allen]

Paul,
The ONLY reason I took pictures of the stacks was because it was a SHARE cutting job and I would be leaving the job site.  The last time I did that I got shorted, so I learned from that experience and took pics the next share job. 

Taking pics of a bF job doesnt tell you anything.  Sounds like your customer has been shorting you.

(We came up with a rough guesstimate of 1500 bf.)
Then
(his tally was 1440 )
Then
(My rough guesstimate was 60 bf under his)

I assume you meant your guesstimate was over his. I doubt I would squable over $18 but I would make a mental note for the next time. 

(delivery would be $50 per way and the lumber would be ready to load when I got there.Normaly I would waive the one trip as a goodwill gesture)

(he was getting $100 knocked off in delivery charges up until that day.)

I assume when you say you waive one trip as a goodwill gesture that would equal $50 knocked off.  I dont follow the $100 knocked off. 

All that aside, I think what you have pointed out is a perfect example of the importance of establishing how things are going to be tallied ahead of time and how discrepancies are to be handled. 

An accurate tally leaves little room for dispute.

I guess the most important things is to ensure the customer is satisfied with what ever method is used, provided the sawyer is not getting ripped off. 

[Kirk_Allen]

LOCATION, LOCATION, LOCATION! 

After reviewing my records this morning a definitive trend exposed itself. 

Where are you cutting? 

The rural cutting jobs I have NEVER had a problem or dispute of any kind.

The Suburban cutting jobs, either large communities or close to major cities, I see that 1 out of 3 of my invoices had notes about disputes from the customer.  In each case it was what the total BF cut was.  Some wanted to define a board foot as a linear foot.  Having a contract that outlined what a BF is solved those disputes.  An accurate tally sheet solved the others. 

I can only assume that because of the environment the suburban folks live in they tend to be less trusting than those in a rural setting.  The other thing I noticed was that most of those who raised a dispute were new customers that found me through a web site and not a personal referal. 

Its nice to be back in the country 8)

[Curlywoods]

  I have never purchased wood right off the mill, so my input may not be of much help.  As a buyer of dry lumber, I need an accurate tally of what I am buying. 

  Now in reality, I hardly ever get what I pay for it seems.  I rarely ever get more than I pay for and more often than not, when we inventory an incoming shipment, it is usually less than the stated quantity.

  I usually just suck it up, but when the totals exceed 10% less than I am paying for, I balk.  I have a handful of suppliers  that hit the mark (or at least close) more often than not and I appreciate that.  Margins on lumber are slim at best and I need to make every board count. 

  I understand that it is difficult to provide speed, quality cutting and an accurate count.  It is like the old saying "Quality, Customer Service, Cost - Pick two as this is all that you can realistically can expect."

  Again my comments have are outside of the custom sawing issues addressed here, but ultimately I depend upon an accurate tally or else I am the one holding the bag when its all said and done.

[Paul_H]

I'm rural here and this is my first and only dispute of this kind.I don't advertise but rely on repeat business and word of mouth advertising.

It's 30 miles one way to this particular customer's yard,I charge $100 round trip.This order had made two round trips,one for KD and the other for s4s after he sorted and trimmed.

When I KD a volume of around 3mbf for this customer,I would waive the delivery one way.For example,if I was picking the lumber up it was $50 to drive empty down to his yard,load and another $50 to return to the kiln with the lumber so the cost is $100.

When the load is finished,the same process is repeated but I have the option to waive the $100 for that trip if I want to.

Am I confusing everyone?  

[Qweaver]

Here are a few sections of spread sheets that I finished yesterday.  The tally sheet is just a form that I'll use to pencil in as I'm cutting and then I'll enter that info into the other SS on my laptop and it will do all the math.  May or may not work well...I'll just have to try it and see.  I'd like to see other peoples ideas. 

[Kirk_Allen]

(This order had made two round trips,one for KD and the other for s4s after he sorted and trimmed.)

That makes total sense now. I didnt realize you were making 2 round trip trips.

[Todd]

Just a stupid novice question......when you figure the bf on rough are you using actual measurements or nominal?
If I cut a bunch of 1.5"x3.5" is it tallied as 2x4 or as it's actual measurement?   also, do you round down to the nearest foot on length or just to the nearest foot?  8'3"=8', but is 8'9" also 8'?
thanks
Todd

[Kirk_Allen]

If the board was 1.5x3.5 that is the figure I use. I round down to the nearst foot for length.  Rounding up after the half foot mark makes the customer feel he is getting charged for something yet gets nothing, which is true.

This type of information should be spelled out before cutting and preferably in the contract. 

[Todd]

thats what I thought
thanks Kirk

[Larry]

Never had a dispute over the quantity when custom sawing...guess maybe because I'm proactive.

When the customer shows up with his logs I scale em and give the guy an estimate of what they will yield.  Scaling also prevents any price surprises when they pick up the lumber.  My estimate is always a little less than the actual yield.  Also I make sure they have a firm understanding of what a board foot is.  When they show up to pick up the lumber I hand them the tape and ask if they want to check my total...some do, but there total is always higher. They forget to take into account the space between boards when they measure the layers.

Now if I could figure out a way to explain why I can't cut there log that is full of metal and keep em happy, I would be in 7th heaven.

Hey Mike, took a class while back and we got into a discussion bout shrinkage, net, and gross tally.  Apparently there are people that like to play games with the numbers for profit.   For the most part illegal...when you buy 1,000 BF it should be a 1,000 BF.  Hold there feet to the fire.

Qweaver, your system is to complicated and probably not that accurate.  Get a lumber scale and it will give ya surface measure which is the same as board feet for 4/4.  It will eliminate the step of converting inches into board feet.  Got some nifty forms around that make the tally a snap...can't find em cause I almost always use a layer tally, just because it is so much easier.

[W]

i normally only do per hour jobs because there is usually some log wrestling and chainsaw action involved.  i have one customer who was worried about  his budget and so forth.  i did one day by the hour, then he was faltering on the rest of the stack.  i told him that my wife and i would finish it by the bft.  he liked that.  no work for him, known price at the outcome.  i did the math and the total would have been within $50 of my original estimate.  so anyway--- i used a clipboard with an Excel spreadsheet:  log id on the top row, 1x6, 1x7,...thru 1x12 for each length: 8' thru 16' (sounds like a lot, but it only take a front and back).  i make tic marks as the boards go onto the sticked stack.  got this handy lumber calculator book from a trade show ( you could make one on excel).  each page is a size ( like 1x6, 1x8, etc.), with lengths across the top and quantity down the left column.  very quick to tally up a days work.

scy