anyone making money sawing pine?

[two saw]

I was just wondering if anyone was sawing dimensional pine for a living.
I sawed some pine for a fellow the other day and I was impressed by how well it sawed. Got to thinking that maybe I could saw pine instead of hardwoods. Now, I am sawing ties and getting a few boards off them as well. Is there a market for dimensional pine lumber? I know that it probably has a lot to do with my area but I was just wondering about the pine market in general.
Let's say I wanted to saw 2x dimensional lumber for building and construction, Is there a certain pine species that has to be used for this. I had some trusses built a while back and I was told they were built out of southern yellow pine. 
Got a fellow not too far from me that has a couple kilns, Does no sawing for himself just buys lumber, dries it and sells it. I was thinking of cantacting him as to what might be available as a market.
Sorry if I sound uninformed about this but there is a lot I don't know yet about lumber markets and tree species etc.
What is the going price for pine logs per 1000ft.?
I would appreciate any advice.
Dan.

[DanG]

You can make money on pine, just not much of it. ;)  Seriously, you gotta saw more lumber to make a dollar because it sells cheaper than most hardwoods.  On the upside, most of your orders will probably be bigger.  You've sure got the mill for it, though.  With that log deck, you should be able to pump out lots of lumber, buy you'll have to have a slick way to handle all that lumber.  I'm still working on ways to do that part.

Can't help ya much with the $ figures, since I'm just sawing free logs at a very low volume as a small supplement to my retirement pension.

Check the building codes in your area, as your lumber may not be legal to build houses.  That leaves barns, sheds and fences as your primary markets, so you shouldn't have to worry about kiln drying.  You might look around for a pressure treating facility to enhance your business.

[Ron Wenrich]

Well, that all depends on what you're sawing.  The problem with white pine is you can get some pretty big knots.  That doesn't work out too well for dimension lumber.  Hemlock has small, tight knots, but is prone to shake.  Soputhern pine has the smaller knots.  Some places require grade stamps.

What we do with pine is to saw off any grade material.  Small, tight knots to clear.  Going price is about $1-$1.25/bf.  You'll get these primarilly on your butt logs.

Boards with more numerous knots, but are tight, we saw into 1x6 and 1x4.  That is then air dried.  We then send it out to have it tongue and grooved.  Makes great paneling.  I have used it on ceilings and built cabinets with it.

When the knots get too big, then I cut 2x8's, if I can get them.  This is used for cabin siding, after it is machined.  Those that don't make 8" will be cut down to either a 2x6 or a 2x4.

The hearts we make into 6x8 stock.  This is also used for cabin stock. 

I also get orders for sawing post and beam stock.  Those can be as small as a 4x6 to as large as a 10x12.  Long stock is preferred. 

I've been around a lot of different mills, and I marvel at the differences in what they are cutting.  One mill will make a good living cutting pine, another mill won't touch the stuff.  Some guys cut only ties, other make a living at cutting all pallet stock. 

The point is, you can make money at just about anything in the wood business.  It just depends how much time you want to put into marketing and what species you have available in your area.

[mike_van]

Eastern White pine, i've found to be too soft for framing lumber, it doesn't hold nails well. Larch is much better, almost like Doug. Fir.  I tried to use some white pine 2x12's some years ago for staging planks, I had to double them up even for my narrow butt - I thought single they would snap. Spruce is much better for them, I just didn't have any then. I usually make 1" boards  from all the white pine I get, makes good siding.  One person I knew used it for floors,  I think there's still some high heels stuck in it.

[Raphael]

Every once in a while there's that EWP cant that weighs almost twice what it should.  This EWP is actually denser and does work as 2x framing.  Otherwise I think of EWP as Timber Framing material and siding.

Mike, do you know Bob Barlow over in Bog Hollow?

[treecyclers]

With current market prices, sawing pine doesn't pay in dimensional form, at least here in AZ.
I can't begin to compete with a local mill that puts it out at $.38 a boardfoot if I have to buy logs.
Instead, I cater to the custom woodworkers and specialty shops that use pine in other forms, such as shelving, cabinetry, and furniture.
I get between $1.10 and $2.00 a boardfoot, depending on width.
The ultra wide stuff is tough to come by here in AZ, as the trees don't grow really huge like other areas, and I keep my boards as wide as possible. It's easier for me to cut one down than it is to put it back together, and wider brings a better buck in the end.
I get lots of Ponderosa Pine for free from excavation companies that cut roads into the mountains around here, and they're pleased as punch to be rid of them!
SD

[two saw]

Thanks for the replies, Kind of what I had suspected. I am just looking for that niche market, i guess, that won't kill me like cutting ties. Might look into trying the mill mobil to go saw for other people. seems like it would be time consuming though. Time is not on my side right now. That is why I would like to keep the thing in the woods behind the house. had an idea about setting a hog at the end of a conveyor to rid myself of the slabs anyone else doing something like this. Trying to keep this just me and looking for ways to ease the lifting and handling some. Any good ideas that are working for you please pass them on as I would appreciate them.
Dan.

[mike_van]

Rafe - I know Bob, last week I sawed a white oak 10x15x16' from his stock -  It was dry, heavy & HARD! 

[getoverit]

I have milled and sold quite a bit of pine and I now have a mountain of pine logs behind the barn. The thing I have found is that it is tough to compete with the box stores on dimensional lumber and actually make anything at it.

There are a couple of exceptions to this.

First, if you can produce 16' long boards or longer or you can produce wide planks, you tend to get more money for it and can justify spending time cutting it.

second, you can make money by producing beams and fireplace mantles out of pine. The trouble is, these are generally small sales.

Third, if you can actually make something out of the pine lumber (Like privacy fencing or paneling or flooring), there is a good market for this. Having access to a treatment facility for your lumber will add value to the lumber as well.

It has been my experience here in Florida that about the best you can do for dimensional lumber in less than 16' lengths is around $.50/bf (the going rate for kiln dried and planed dimensional lumber at the box stores is around $.55 - $.65 per bf.)

[DanG]

Two Saw, as I said, I'm familiar with your mill and it can turn out a lot more lumber than you can ever handle by yourself.  I haven't heard what sort of support equipment you have.  I have an old forklift, "The Hootiemobile", and a 60hp farm tractor with a front loader.  Without those guys, I'd be out of business.  The Hootiemobile handles the larger logs and loads the mill, as well as helping to offbear the larger boards.  The tractor/loader handles the smaller logs, slabs and sawdust.  Both of them help with chores around the place to free up more time for sawing.

I have several methods of handling lumber.  Sometimes I offbear directly onto a customer's trailer.  That is the easiest method.  I can sticker it with very little extra effort if it is gonna sit there for a while, but don't bother if they're going to unload it right away.  I leave that up to the customer and I don't charge extra for the sticks.  Sometimes, I offbear onto a pair of timbers on the ground, then move the stack with the forklift.  Again, stickering is optional according to the situation.  When cutting big stuff, like 16 foot 2x8s, I park the forklift behind the mill and let them slide right onto the forks, to be dealt with later.  This saves me a lot of back pain.  If I'm sawing for my own inventory, I usually build a drying pallet and sticker the lumber directly onto that, then move it to its drying location with the forklift.

My main goal in all of this is to enjoy each board as it comes off the mill, then never touch it again.  You can go broke real fast if you try to handle high volume/low cost lumber multiple times.

[Ironwood]

Framing stock will encounter the same hurtles as recycled 2x material, that is the certification as mentioned earlier. I think for certain applications you can get away with non cert. or recycled, as in my future shop. It is a recycled I-beam frame steel mill structure from a 1930-40's era factory. My recycled 2x's will simply fill the gaps between the steel vertical columns, not really structural (and a architect will sign off on that fairly easily).  The gaps are 14' high and 19' long, most likely with a transom light at the the top 3' just before the eve. making the walls 15-16' tall.

  I have most of my pine cut into roof decking and siding 1x 12-18's. More coverage. Given the cost of plywood I think this makes sense, certainly for roof decking.


                          Reid

[Ron Wenrich]

I'm not real sure of your setup.  Bandmill or dimension mill.  I'm running a circle rig and have very little handling in comparison to the smaller mills.

All our sawdust goes down to a conveyor.  Gravity is your friend.  All boards and slabs are taken away with a set of belts, but we're running the log past a headrig, not the headrig past the log.  Slabs are dumped into a conveyor and chipped.  Boards are dumped onto a set of chains, then seperated. 

I have seen operations where everything goes onto chains, then the slabs go into a conveyor at the end of the chains, and are chipped or hogged.

[jkj]

I usually build a drying pallet and sticker the lumber directly onto that...

Dear Mr DanG,

Do you have pictures, discription, and/or dimensions of this drying pallet, perhaps in a previous thread?

Pretty low volume here (I saw only for fun and farm), but this drying pallet thing sounds interesting and efficient.

Sincerely,
JKJ

[DanG]

Ron W, don't somebody eventually have to handle all that lumber?  The big diff is that the sawyer has to wear a lot of hats in a tiny little one-man operation.

jkj, here's a not too good pic of some of my racks.




I just take a couple of 1x10s the desired length and nail a 1" ledger board along one edge.  Then I cut a bunch of 3' 1x10s and nail them between those long pieces on top of the ledgers.  This leaves the cross pieces sticking up to provide ventilation below the bottom layer of boards.  The whole thing looks like a bookshelf if you stand it on end.  I put those cross boards every 2 feet and make my racks 3' wide to fit the 39" forks on the Hootiemobile.  I put down plastic or tar paper for a moisture barrier beneath them.  Clear as mud? :D  I'll try to get a better pic soon.

[two saw]

DanG,
Here is a picture of the hired help. When I say hired I means I gotta give it a paycheck too.
Makes life a little easier around the mill. Earnes it's keep. Can pick up and go with a bundle of 20 ties.

[Larry]

Got a friend in the Ozarks that specializes in cutting SYP landscape timbers.  Runs a circle mill so he can crank out a lot of product in a short time.  Sends a truck load to the treatment plant.  Clientele is mostly retirees up in the hills doing landscaping projects.  He offers free?? delivery.  Doesn't work very hard at it but is doing ok.  Course most of his equipment has been paid for a long time go.

[jackpine]

DanG
I like your drying rack Do you put forklift slots in the main 1" x 10" or do you pick the rack up from the bottom?

[DanG]

I haven't put slots in any of them so far.  I usually just put down some dunnage for them to rest on by the mill, so I can get the forks under them.  To set them down in their "final resting place"  I put a log or something under one end so I can get the forks out.  Then I scoot around to the end and place a piece of angle iron across the forks, lift it up and snatch the log out.  When I lower it to the ground and back out, the angle iron is easy to remove.  I'll try to get some pics soon to explain this a little better. ;)

[Ron Wenrich]

The point of the green chain is that you can do a lot of different seperations.  You can do it for species or length or customer or dimension.  It also acts like a suge area.  I can put quite a few sawn logs on it before its full.

In our mill, someone has to stack all the lumber.  Some mills do have automatic stackers.  But, no one has to lift boards.  They do a lot of sliding.  The really big ones just roll off the end and they use their new LogRite to get them in place.   ;)