reusing an old timber frame

[srt]

My better half and I are making plans for our retirement house on Maryland's Eastern Shore.   I'm considering timber frame with sips.  One of the paths under consideration is to find and use an old frame.  I've seen the listings from guys who will sell a disassembled, marked frame with drawings and eng's stamp.  There are also still some T/F's out there still standing that are available for prices from nothing to many thousands. 

I'd like to get some information about using an old T/F that I would find and take down.  Small barns appeal to me.   Something like 1000 ft2 per floor, two floors would be more than enough.  Smaller would be OK also.

How does one go about getting the necessary paperwork to reuse an old frame?  I realize "it depends upon how much time the engineer has to spend", but in general, are there any thoughts as to the cost to get enough paperwork to satisfy the building inspector?  Anyone know an engineer with this type of experience that they would recommend in my area?

  Lastly, if a suitable old building like this is found, and she appears  reasonably straight and strong and doesn't appear to have undersized members (compared to stick framing) for floor joists and the like,  is it reasonable to assume that it would pass the eng's calcs without major changes?  There are too many assumptions that probably need to be made to answer that last question, but still, I'd like some food for thought.  Thanks,   srt

[beenthere]

You have an energetic plan there, and wish you well with it.

Besides the engineer approving the size and design of the TF, likely you will need an evaluation of the condition (decay and structural integrity) of each timber. Just recently saw something about non-destructive evaluation of historic structures (Forest Products Society) that was either a report or a scheduled seminar on that subject. I'll look for it. There is considerable interest in evalutating the condition of timbers that have been in use over a long period of time. Sometimes, disassembly of the structure causes failures that are difficult to determine how they affect strength.

[Don P]

The first stop will be with the inspector. I know one person with a larger frame for sale, he's done some checking and the response from different inspectors has been everything from "engineer required" to "bring it on, it's held more hay than it'll ever see as a house"
Our engineers are listed on the state DPOR website, your state will probably have different alphabet soup. The TF Guild has a listing of some engineers.

[Raphael]

  Ask the building inspector where you intend to build what he/she wants to see.  My first inspector would want an engineer to look and approve a structure that was being repurposed (barn becoming house, etc.), but not if the frame is from an existing (undamaged) house.  My current building inspector is going along with that (at least in my case).  As an incomplete but standing house frame the 18x36 portion of my frame fell into the existing house catagory.

  My (timber frame) engineer's company is licensed in twenty states including MD, which could be a handy thing if you find a frame you like in another state.  If they can't help you directly Jim DeStano (the boss) should be able to suggest someone more local, he's an active guild member and into historic preservation.
You can contact them through this website: DeStefano Associates Structural Engineers

  Lastly, if a suitable old building like this is found, and she appears  reasonably straight and strong and doesn't appear to have undersized members (compared to stick framing) for floor joists and the like,  is it reasonable to assume that it would pass the eng's calcs without major changes?

  I'd say if an old frame is still standing straight and strong (preferably under a roof) and has no obvious signs of rot it'd be pretty safe to put a deposit on.  But I'd have a local (or itinerate) timber framer with preservation and conversion experiance look at it before you do, they can tell you how suitable a particular frame it to convert to what you want as they'll know the pitfalls and code issues that can come up.

[Stumpkin]

Finding an old barn frame that small ( 1000 sq. ft.) may not be easy. A larger frame even if it has some damage may be downsized to fit your needs. damaged parts can be replaced with parts from the section of the frame that is not going to be reused.
The old saying," It's easier to ask for forgivness than to ask permission", dosent seem to apply to building inspectors. It is always best to talk with them before you have made them mad. Tom

[Joel Eisner]

Another option that might be easier and less expensive in the long run would be to have a new frame cut that is not all dressed up (planed and sanded).  We cut ours over a year and did not do anythng special to the timbers other that keep them covered and dry.  Some look new others have stains and spalting.  Multiple people have thought it is an old frame.

[srt]

Thanks for the responses.  As has been said several times, the inspector carries much weight.  The house we live in now had very low ceilings when I bought it.  Along with gutting it, I pulled out the 2X3 ceiling joists, sistered the 2X4 rafters with 2X6's and turned the roof system into well gusseted scissors trusses in place, giving me a much, much nicer space in the house.  I ran the idea past an architech friend before I did it - unofficial like, no paperwork or money.  The inspector loved it, and was impressed with the job.  I suspect he could have just as easily asked me where my design paperwork was for those site built trusses.  He's an old carpenter turned inspector, and knows by experience what's good, and what's not. Also, it was my own home, not a customer's.

I think I'll try to find out who the inspector in the area we're going to build is, and what his take is on converting old barn frames.  Think I'll also do some more reading over at the Guild.   I understand that in the area we're going to build, they don't have an on-the payroll employee as an inspector.  Instead, they contract out to an inspection company that has professional inspectors.  I was speaking with a plumber friend a while back, and he told me that there is now a college major for inspector, where one guy can get a 4 year degree and then inspect plumbing, electrical, building, fire, etc..  Fresh, or pretty fresh outta school.   If that's true, it's kinda scary!!

Joel, Your suggestion about cutting my own frame is also a possibility.  I have the sawmill, and the timber.  If I were to go that route, obviously the plans would have to be stamped, but what about the grading of the timbers themselves?  Did you have to have someone grade them?


Thanks again for the replies.  Feel free to add to this post if something strikes you - srt

[Jim_Rogers]

About grading timbers.
If you're going with new timbers and you want to saw them yourself, you can usually hire a traveling grader to come to your property and visually inspect your timbers and provide you with a stamp or documents to satisfy the inspectors.
You haven't posted where you are located so I can't tell you which lumberman's association to contact to find out about traveling graders.
If you're going to use recycled timbers you may have a problem getting them graded. Up here in the northeast the lumberman's association has told us they will not grade used timbers.
Good luck with your research.
Jim Rogers

[Don P]

Our travelling grader said the same thing about old logs when I quizzed him. Our inspector will allow repair of an existing structure with like material, but no new work with ungraded timber. Each inspector is different though.

[Raphael]

  It's interesting that the entire time we researched cutting our own frame nobody in athority mentioned travelling timber graders.  Locally the rule is you can use ungraded timbers from a "known sawmill", but they want an engineer to check anything that could be considered salvaged timber.  Anything you mill yourself they want graded but they had no suggestions on how to accomplish this short of hiring an engineer (which is big bucks).
  Generally speaking what is the cost of hiring a travelling grader?

[Tom]

I spoke to one a few years ago.  He is a traveling grader only that he works for the Grading agency and travels to verify the grading of mills who use their stamp.  It's been awhile, but, I seem to remember a charge of $300 an hour plus travel and expenses.  The display of the lumber is the user's responsibility and he must be staffed to exhibit both sides of each piece.

[Don P]

Our inspector requires the agency check grader Tom spoke of. He is the only "accredited" travelling grader recognized by the code. All other graders operate at a fixed location and their stamp may not leave the site. The overseeing agency's check grader travels to those mills and audits the company graders by unannounced spot checks. An engineer is not typically qualified to assess timbers, although they are often allowed to do so. The closest grader here runs $65/hr including windshield and has a 1/2 day minimum. Staging, like Tom said is up to the owner. Have a chainsaw handy, sometimes you can bump grade with a little trim. I would contact NeLMA in CT and ask if they have someone who rides the circuit nearby. For a small quantity, like your joist or 2, ours said I could meet him with a trailer somewhere on one of his runs and save a little $. The shop I am working on now is ungraded, it falls under an ag exemption as a sawmill support building (thank you farmers!).

[srt]

Seems like there's some gray area in if the timbers need to be  graded.  Again, I guess it depends on the inspector. 

DonP, I've actually thought about the agricultural building thing.  On our land, a 29 acre farm, I can build anything I want any way I want, as long as it meets the setbacks, and is not on the bad business list (like an auto junk yard) and is for ag purposes.  Lat year, I had a pole shed put up, and my dealings with the local gov't on it were about as complicated as getting a dog license.    I had the land perc'd for septic when I bought it, and that process took the better part of a year and over $1000.  Don't think an inspector ever came around to see the pole shed, as it's not required by the county.  Little brother (one county over) built a pole shed without geting the permit, and got caught.  All he had to do was buy a permit and pay a $25 fine.  I guess in his case (and others I've heard about) all the inspections and plans (pole depth, truss paperwork, etc) are blown off - his lot is not agricultural, and he should have submitted all that stuff.

Sometimes makes me wonder how far we've come.   In some respects, it makes me want to build another "ag" building, this time timber frame, using plans from someone who plans T/F's for a living, and then convert it to a house.  There would likely be nothing more required than a walk through inspection and pay more taxes on it.  There are actually provisions in the county code for converting an ag building to a different use.  The bigest part of what's written seems to pertain to the county getting more taxes.  Not much about ensuring it's safe.

Sawmill support building - I love the name!  Right now, my ag pole building holds my tractors and some haying equipment and a few woodworking tools currently not in use.  When we move down there, this building will become my cabinet shop, and I'll build another pole shed out of used tin and stuff I cut for the farm equipment.  Guess I now have a new name for my cabinet shop - a sawmill support building.  Sawmills are allowed by planning/zoning as ag.

Jim, I live in S. Jersey, but the home will be built in Caroline County MD - about 50 miles as the crow flies, 2 hours by car.  Most of the beams would come from the farm, but there may be some from up here in Jersey, but I could easliy take them down and stage them for easy grading.


Raphael,  How do they know who cut the timbers?  Do mills use stamps for ungraded stuff like that?  IIRC, there are some states in the N.E. that allow the use of home cut stuff in conventional construction as long as the mill guy (big or little) stands behind it as #2 or better.  Are you living where that's the case? 

An interesting side note.  My Grandfather used to be able to grade.  His memory isin't very clear these days (he's 88), but I remember him saying something about being a southern pine grader when he worked as the planer mill and drying foreman in what was a fairly large lumber yard way back in the day.   His house, built right after WW2 has some nice lumber in it.  Not too fancy, or big, but really nice edge grain stuff.

I appreciate all your responses.  I move slow, and it'll be a while before I decide how we're going to proceed, but the knowledge, pit falls,  and possible paths I'm learning from you folks is helping to guide me.

[nsmike]

srt,
I'm new here but I have had an intrest in timberframing for a while. In my research I found that barn convesions and the reuse of old timberframes are regularly done. If you google barn conversions, timberframe restoration, and barn wood, you'll find a number of companies working in the field. One that I came across in Maryland is Fitzgerald Heavy Timber their website specifically states that they do barn conversions. A phone call to them should at least tell you what can be done in the county you plan to build in. Another angle that I've heard of is to use Structural Insulated Panels and base the engineering on strength of the SIPs. I have questions on how that would work for a second story area. As for size of the structure, a very common barn type, is the English Threshing Barn, they average 30x40 which is right in your ball park for size.
Mike 

[Jim_Rogers]

Raphael:
NeLMA inspector came here once and brought the stamp with him.
He inspected the timber and stamped it here.
He provided the customer with documents for the job.
He charged a one day rate, for the drive down from ME and back plus the inspection and writing the report.
He taught a beginner inspector as he inspected the timbers.
And as mentioned you have to have them laid out for viewing of "all" sides and ends for inspection.
And he wanted to know which ones were posts and which ones were to be used as beams.
He did reject a few.

Second floor support can be done with sips by using the proper sized and attached joist hangers. They hang over the top of the first floor panel, for example.
They make whole houses out of sips without any timber frame or stick frame, I've been to one under construction with the panel company on a tour. It can be done, just everything has to be planned out in advance.

Jim Rogers