Fuel vs. electric power for bandmill

[Bibbyman]

Fuel prices going back up again.  >:(  Makes me think again about going 'lectric'.  :  I think one guy said switching from gas to electric cut his energy bills from $400/month for gas to something like $150 for electricity.  : And the electric mills are a good bit cheaper than their gas or diesel counterparts.:   Cheaper to run - no oil, filters, plugs, etc. to change.:   But I already have two mills and they are paid for.  :-[ But electric would be quiet and would not stink up the place. ;) But you'd have to stay put or have a long extension cord. :-[  And I don't have 3ph - I'd have to go with a phase converter.  :-[ And it'd only make sense to change out the edger too.   :-[

Don't mind me.  I'm just thinking on the Forum.  I'm normally not this conflicted. :-/  (Or I so simple minded I don't normally think things through this much. :'()  

One thing sure,  it'll be a Wood-Mizer Supper Hydraulic with Accuset,  debarker and such.  8) 8) 8)

If you got any experience, suggestions or comments on changing to a 3ph electric mill,  feel free to jump right in.  I'd love to hear them.  :-/

[Ron Wenrich]

We used to run our circle mill with diesel.  But, when we installed a new mill, we switched to electric.

But, when we tried to hook up to the local electric company, costs were prohibitive.  So, we put in our own gen set.  We're also running 440 3 phase.

Fuel consumption is about the same.  The old operation had 2 diesels (1 for the headrig, 1 for chipper & edger).  

But, we are running more equipment than we did before.  Higher output of hydraulics, live decks, chipper, conveyors, green chain, headrig, blowers, vertical edger and horizontal edger, and lights.

Our gen set is a 240 KW, but, your operation could get away with one much smaller.  Besides, diesel is cheaper than gasoline.  Usage is about 400 gallons/week.

The electic company will charge you a flat amount just to stay hooked up.  Then they charge you for usage.  We found it to be too expensive.

With a gen set, there isn't too much difference between electric and diesel.  You still have to wait for the motor to respond to drag.  Street electric doesn't have that effect.

Of course, you could convert over to solar. :D

[nfp]

well, funny thing i may have a wood mizer lt 40 h-15e not sure about #s yet not here.but it is elect 3-ph 15 hp wood mizer said it would out saw 24hp onan easily.   but i need a ph converter???????????? money?  what w m do you have? later nfp

[Tim]

My circular is running on gasoline currently. It would make your stomache turn to see my fuel bill for the month. Here, gas is roughly double than it is in the States due to taxes. I was considering changing to a closed circuit steam system. I had see several years ago where a fellow in Manitoba fitted one of these closed circuit steam systems to an airplane.

I recently found a set of schematics for a converstion of an internal combustion engine into this steam system. What I was thinking is installing one of those outdoor furnaces for heating the house and one of the out buildings for a shop; Then putting the steam generation loop into the furnace to power a converted engine or a converted engine and a generator.

Near as I can fuigure, we are manufacturing roughly twice the residual than we would require to power the mill and heat the house.

http://www.firedragon.com/~kap/educator

[Neil_B]

those outdoor furnaces are great. Put one in when we built our house. The only thing I'd wonder about is the steam gen hooked into the furnace. I don't know if the furnace would work as you can only run them max 190 degrees or you risk melting all your pipe in the system or burning out the steel. I don't know anything about the steam setup myself but maybe something for you to consider.
I'm running a diesal myself, the only thing is diesel is more than gas here. Only difference maybe is they are supposed to be more efficient. Hopefully I can start pacing the mill soon to see what it will consume in a day.

[Tim]

Diesel at the pump is more than gasoline here too. If you can get your deisel delivered bulk coloured New_ Sawyer, the taxes are taken off. Same goes for the gasoline that you burn in an off-road application.

As for the steam coil in the outdoor furnace... you should still be able to generate steam with the coil in close proximity to the fire, as heat transfer is exponential to distance from the source. I know you are right when you quote 190 for the water in the jacket.

I see myself running gas or deisel for sometime yet but, I think that there may be some merrit in attempting a small scale test of this steam system. The oldtimers used steam extensively with less efficient technology than we have now. Then again... I've been wrong before, and without a doubt I will be again.

[Bibbyman]

BTW,  if you haven't read many of my posts in the past year or so,  we did go 3ph.  Click on my web site icon. (The little house to the left under the picture of Mary sawing.)

The short report is: We love it.  Energy cost about 1/3 of what lesser powered gas mill,  no maintenance in first 14 mounts of running.,  quieter,  no fumes, no heat.  If you're going to bolt a mill to the floor,  it's the best way to go.

[Lenny]

nfp
Rule of thumb is 2-1. Electric vrs gas or desel
It would take a 30HP gas to keep up with a 15HP electric

[Neil_B]

Tim, sounds like it would be worth a try. The only other thing to consider is the off/ on cycle of the fire itself. Your steam production would be intermittent with the opening/closing of the draft. For example: the water temp in the boiler hits 170deg and the draft opens getting the fire going. Once that boiler temp hits 185 the draft closes and the fire goes out. Depending on how much heat you are pulling out of the water for the house and shop and depending on how cold outside it is, the draft may not open for hours thereby reducing your steam output.
I think you would need a separate firebox that you could run just the steam gen in and you would basically be able to leave the draft open enough to be heating the coil continuously while you need the steam output.
Just more thoughts

[Tim]

I was thinking generally the same thing New_Sawyer. An independant firebox would more than likely be the way to go.

[Mark M]

You will need a big heavy boiler to power a steam engine. Temperature and pressure is much higher than a wood stove can deliver (safely). Check out the Western Minnesota Steam Thresher's Reunion website (http://www.rollag.com/). They have lots of steam engines and several steam powered sawmills.It is held in Rollag MN every labor day.

Mark

[Tim]

check out the link I posted previously Mark, This system that they are using runs on 2 to 3 gallons of water.

The system makes sence provided that you can condence the steam rapidly.

[Mark M]

Hi Tim

I can't get the link to work, but am very interested in this. Can you check it please?

 I would love to make my own electricity and do other things from burning wood. I have a Aqua-Therm outdoor wood furnace that really works well.

Mark

[Tim]

I checked the link like you asked Mark M., seems they removed it.

[Andre]

Here is some info on steam.  Check out the papers on Lamont Boilers.
http://steamgazette.com/papers/papers.htm

[IndyIan]

Here is the best article I've found on producing electricity from steam.
 http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles/goebel43.html

Go through the math carefully as he's talking about producing a whole day worth of electricity in 2 hours.

I've seriously considered building an off the grid house and producing electricity from an outdoor furnace would be ideal.  There doesn't seem to be any off the shelf steam systems and I don't have the skills or equipment to make my own.

Just thinking about it now, might be easiest to find a steam tractor, run a big generator off the belt and add some kind of secondary water jacket to the boiler to use to heat the water for a building.

Another alternative fuel that might be worth looking into is alcohol.  Make wood alcohol from the saw dust...  On a big scale this could get pretty cheap!

  

[D._Frederick]

Ron W,
You stated about your gen set, "With a gen set, there isn't too much difference between electric and diesel.  You still have to wait for the motor to respond to drag.  Street electric doesn't have that effect."
I was wondering if you have determined what causes the above  response, is the diesel engine loosing rpm, is the engine governor at fault? Or is the alternator not holding the voltage stable? They run gen set of the size you have in parallel, so they have to hold constant frequency.

[solidwoods]

These home wood fired boilers cannot produce any and I mean any steam pressure.  They are an open system. If you close the system, and make pressure, you will blow the plumbing apart and Blah, Blah. Cant make steam with them.
(you can make a kiln or pre-dryer with them though, contrary to some peoples beliefs)

Steam is a whole new occupation in itself, mostly larger scale. I would stay away from that expense

I tried the draggon link,,,dud.  I would like to see it  

I saw a PTO generator I.O.U all the address. I would go with a PTO gen since it could be kept portable and used for pwr outages.

I want to go elec soon.  Have you or anyone seen any good recommendations for 20-25hp elec 2203ph?

Now I gen my own 3ph with another 3ph motor, If you need it in the lower amp ranges like 10hp or less this is a pretty good very cheap way to go (only if done right and complete with breakers and adult supervision)

If you get around an elec mill, you will want one. The lack of noise makes it sweet mill'in
JIM

[Tim]

I'll see what I can do about posting the internal combustion engine conversions to a locked group in the MSN Groups. I'll post the link here when I get it done. You'll have to identify yourself by a means that I would know you from here to grant you access and all that other good stuff. Then you will see the system and I'll be able to describe the wood fired system I have in mind. Unless there is an easier way to do it here...

Electric generation through a genset runs at roughly 60% effieincy.

There is no size to this system. When I first heard of this closed circuit system powering an airplane, I had to see it. I saw it on a minibike in a 1972 popluar mechanics magazine as well.

I wouldn't  restrict the water flow in an outdoor furnace to give it a steam generation capacity. What I would do is insert a coil for the steam generation as a secondary system in the furnace.

There is a further capacity to generate power off the carbon dioxide that the furnace gives off as it too is combustable. The Nazi's were using the system at the end of WWII when they were running out of fuel.