Black Locust

Blue Sky · November 03, 2007, 06:04:53 PM

Why don't more people use locust instead of pressure treated? P.T. is the next lead paint/asbestos snafoo. I heard that 75% of all wooden play structures in the U.S. are made of this stuff. We have a company in our area that printed out a caution sheet for P.T., but the lumber yards refused to pass the sheets out to clients. Locust posts last longer than the holes they are put in. P.T. lasts what 10-15 years if you are lucky.

LeeB · November 03, 2007, 06:42:10 PM

You got enough of it to supply the whole nation? Pine is pletiful and cheap.

thedeeredude · November 03, 2007, 06:54:57 PM

I like locust. Its cheaper than p.t. in my area. And plentiful. Unfortunately a lot of the locust around here grows to a certain diameter and then hollows out.

Tom · November 03, 2007, 07:13:29 PM

We don't have much of it in Florida, for sure.

The preassure treatment scare has been quieted down considerably when it was found that most of the fear was hogwash. CCA isn't "bad" as the condemning enviro groups complained. The main reason it isn't sold today to the general public is because of saving face of the government which outlawed it for general use. Other treatments have proven to be expensive and not as effective. Properly used and properly disposed of, PT is not a concern. There is probably more fear by Equarians for Black Walnut, than the general public for CCA.

Ron Wenrich · November 03, 2007, 07:26:11 PM

I put black locust in about 25 years ago. Some lasted, some didn't. As for the pressure treated, I took posts out that had been in the ground for a good number of years. There was no deterioration. I currently have pressure treated in that have no deterioration after 15 years. White cedar lasts me about 10-15 years.

We could grow plantation black locust to a 4-6" size, then cut for fence posts. It would probably make money for the landowners.

LeeB · November 03, 2007, 07:37:24 PM

I just reread my reply. Aside from not being able to spell plentiful, I realize I sound a bit like a smartash. Sorry about that. I'm not at all familiar with locust and where or how plentiful it grows. I do know there is an awful lot of pine out there and it is relatively cheap.

Ron Wenrich · November 03, 2007, 08:15:22 PM

Actually, you're right. Locust isn't all that plentiful. We get a lot of ours from old fields that have grown into forests. After that harvest, they don't regenerate, unless you cut really hard.

The biggest problem with locust is that you'll have to drill holes in it and you can pretty well forget about screwing your pieces together. Posts are just part of the components that treated lumber is used for.

Dave Shepard · November 03, 2007, 08:27:27 PM

Around here, you won't get a sawlog out of the black locust trees. They do make about the best fence post you could want though. There are many reasons SYP is the lumber of choice for the treated wood market. I hear they grow it like corn down there. :D

Dave

wesdor · November 04, 2007, 08:22:45 PM

Locust is nice, but I prefer hedge. Unfortunately, I don't have enough to supply the nation, but it lasts forever. We have posts that we put in more than 60 years ago and they are still solid.

PineNut · November 04, 2007, 10:03:32 PM

Tom, I believe that most of the pressure treated noise was from the lumber companies. They didn't make much noise when the flap began; just very conveniently buckled under and said it is going to cost us more so we can charge the customer more. Of course a good healthy boost in profit was included in the price increase.

Tom · November 04, 2007, 11:46:15 PM

The take on it down here was that the feds condemned cca and required that another chemical be used. When the feds began to back off, the chemicals had already been changed and the treetment companies couldn't afford to run several different chemicals. Most had already changed so that they could stay in business, so cca went to the wayside. I think most of the cca treatment companies were the slow ones to change, and the ones who primarily treated poles for marine projects.

I would have been scrambling too, if my existance depended upon it.

beenthere · November 05, 2007, 12:01:30 AM

Tom
The inside scoop is that the treating companies decided not to fight the enviro's and the nit-picking that was coming down the pike...about arsenic in the CCA treatment.. Similar to the long fight that clear cutting was "no good". Just a losing battle, and the companies treating wood decided it wasn't worth spending the money. They could easily and painlessly switch to ACA which wasn't as good in several ways, but no fear of the chemicals. The part of the Govt that registered chemicals was also involved, through committees with the public fearmongers among them. I've a close aquaintences in the treating treating registration end of things, and some of the stories are frightening. Similar to hearing some of the foresters frustrations when having the clear-cutting tool taken away from them. :

Arsenic was tied up in the treated wood, and tests run to show that the most sensitive areas (ponds, water, etc.) were not affected...but it fell on deaf ears. Many hypes have swayed our lives. This is but one of the many, in my opinion. We didn't hurt the chemical companies, for they continued in the treating business...we just got hurt ourselves, having to get along with a lesser product. And, if the material doesn't last as long, that is just better for going to replacements...be it plastic or more treated wood. :

:

This a brief response of just a small tip of the iceberg (story), but its the way we make decisions all too often now. :

:

Cedarman · November 05, 2007, 06:36:27 AM

The cca treatment ban has helped our business. We have increased sales of fence posts and decks. Since the price of fence posts has went up, so has the price of cedar posts. Cedar and black locust are niche species and it is up to us small operators to take advantage of marketing opportunities as they come by. We can advertise our cedar as a "green" species.

Cedar is growing about 4 to 10 times as fast as it is being cut depending on who you listen to. And there are literally billions of board feet of cedar growing across the eastern 1/2 of the US. We simply have to efficiently harvest, process and connect directly with the consumer to take advantage of this species.

A big pine mill processes more pine in one day than all the cedar mills in the US put together. We have room to grow.

woodsrunner · November 05, 2007, 08:53:55 AM

hi guys have lurked here for a long time thought i would chime in on this. Live in Florida where there are no locust posts to be had. Grew up in Kentucky where they do occur naturally. own a large tract of timber land in Kentucky and was just looking at locust in particular this weekend. I agree we should go after those niche markets where we can. Selling cedar and locust posts as a green alternative is the ticket. Those species which are particulaly resistant to decay should be conserved for those appropriate kinds of uses and not cut and sold for pallet material. As for PT lumber, here in florida and elsewhere in the Gulf coast PT is absolutely necessary to meet demand for materials used in outdoors applications. My understanding is that CCA has not been shown to be a significant health risk. My concern is with the ACQ treatments available for consumer use today. the quaternary copper compounds do leach quite readily from the wood and I predict they will be shown to have a higher health and environmental risk (available copper is a fairly toxic compound). As for the lumber retailer not providing pamphlets about the risks of PT lumber, my understanding is that was a federal requirement and those retailers were required to provide an MSDS sheet to purchasers (I may be wrong about this). PT lumber when used apropriately is absolutely the way to go for a society that is concerned about efficient use of resources and safety of outdoor structures. Here in North Florida you absolutely cannot use untreated lumber today for construction of outdoor structures such as decks or fences or barns. The days of heartwood cypress and "fat lighter pine" are all but gone from a practical point of view. Untreated pine lumber will last 3 or 4 years at the best when used outdoors here.