Winch log loader?

[StorminN]

Hi guys,

Please forgive me if this has been asked / discussed before... I did a search on the forum and came up with too many hits to look through them all.

I'm wondering if anyone has built or seen a log loader that operates sort of like the hydraulic loaders (with arms), but is powered by a winch. I don't have a loader or anything with forks, so my thought is a hinged loader like this might be faster than parbuckling logs. In a pinch, the winch cable could also be detached from the loader and used to yard or parbuckle logs closer to the mill.

My mill is on a trailer, so it's a couple of feet off the ground. Currently, I have a dead deck next to my mill and load logs onto it either with my excavator (which is really too big for the job) or by parbuckling them up some ramps I made. But I'm thinking if it would be safer and quicker to build a hinged log loader, I would just lay down a couple of long rails, drag my logs onto the rails with the excavator and then I could have 10 or 20 logs lined up on the rails... instead of just five or six, which is what my deck holds now. It is especially tricky trying to load 20' logs alone with an excavator and a chain / tongs. No, my excavator does not have a hydraulic thumb.

Wondering what you guys think or have seen, open to any input...

Here's a quick & dirty sketchup of what I'm thinking... and I realize the loader would need some feet so the mill doesn't want to sink into the ground...



Thanks,
-N.

[brdmkr]

I don't have any sort of setup other than some runners going to the mill.  I have a swing mill, so I don't have to lift logs very high.  I just use a cant hook to move logs on the runners.  I say all of that so you know I am not speaking from experience.

The problem that I think you will have based on your sketch is a loss of mechanical advantage.  Your lever will either have to be very heavily built or it will have to be short.  If it is short you will lose MA.  When parbuckling you have the MA of the slope and the 'gearing' associated with the cable around the log.  Also, as drawn, the winch would not pull down far enough on the lever to actually roll the log onto the loader.   The winch would have to be below the mill loader.

[HOOF-ER]

Winch and arm would be in the road for the next log. Arm would significantly reduce amount of logs you could put on the deck. :

[bandmiller2]

Stormy N,what you have planed will work but a large log may tip the mill,and or put alot of strain on the ways.If you notice mills like the woodmizer have a foot that sits flat on the ground to supports the lower end of the hydraulic cyl.for the lift arms.The strain of lifting a heavy log is between the foot and the lift arms mill only stabilizes it. Frank C.

[kelLOGg]

The lever arm will be under the log after it is loaded unless the lever is very short and then you lose mechanical advantage. Parbuckling is slow but it is the only time I have to rest ;D

Bob

[StorminN]

Hi guys,

Thanks for the replies...

Here's my current setup... dead deck next to the mill, ramps that I don't use that much, because I load with the excavator:



The problem with this is the danger of loading logs up there alone, with a huge excavator and a chain / tongs. They tend to swing a bit and can get out of control. Parbuckling is SLOOOW, but I guess I could buy a faster winch. I'm also kinda sick of climbing up and down on the deck, and kneeling on the deck to dog logs, etc.

With the log lifter I sketched up, I realize once the log was on the mill, the upper arm would be under the log... that's fine with me. My log bunks and dogs stick up about 10" from the frame of the mill, so there is plenty of room. When I'm done milling a log, I can put the waste slab back in the loader and let it back down to the ground.

Other than that upper arm being under the log that was loaded, I don't understand how this loader would be any more "in the road" for the next log than any normal hydraulic loader. I'm thinking I would put rails on the ground and roll logs up to the loader by hand, like this:



I think the max log weight I would try lifting with this would be 2,500 lbs or so... I'm milling cedar, fir, hemlock and small alder... I'm never milling big oak logs. If I had to load any big logs, I could always load them up with my excavator.

So with this style loader, if the arm is a 2:1 mechanical ratio, (like 4' above the hinge and 2' below) the winch would only be pulling about 1,250lbs., right? To get a better angle, I can put a pulley or snatch block low on the frame and pull from there, instead of directly from the winch.

I do realize that this loader would need some sort of legs that braced against the ground, so the mill wasn't taking the brunt of the lifting (so the mill wouldn't want to tip). How exactly to do that is the part I'm still scratching my head on.

So, I may just scrap this idea and resort to using hydraulics... which would complicate some things, but also make the mechanics of a loader a lot easier. I think I can get my hands on a DC hydraulic pack and a couple of cylinders... does anyone know what the average size of log loader cylinders is?

Thanks,
-N.

[HOOF-ER]

Sorry, I get the picture now. I thought that was for a log deck to supply the mill.
It is for the mill itself. smiley_sidelightbulb  Takes me a while. Should work fine, like was said ,longer arm more leverage.

[Fla._Deadheader]

Look for a supply house, such as Surplus Center. They have cylinders and give the measurements, extended and retracted. When we built Homey, we measured carefully, and pretty much copied WM's design. Look at a WM photo. It's pretty simple. I'm thinking we used 16" centerhole to centerhole. That also takes all the strain off  the mill or deck, wherever you use this.

  I bought a forklift powerpack, off ebay, to use on the mill I'm building down here. It would take less steel to build this type than your design.

  Also, IF the log starts to roll on your design, you stand a good chance of destroying something, including you. On a Hyd lift, you can stop just short of overcenter, and gently ease the log onto the mill or deck.  I HATE surprises.  : >:(

[John Bartley]

N,

I always hate to sound negative, but I also wonder about two things;

• would the lifting frame be in the way of the cutting operation once  the log is on the mill?
• 
  if you have to winch anyway, how much time and effort savings would there be over parbuckling?
  

Here's a photo (I hope you don't mind me posting it in your thread) of a 28" pine log being parbuckled up onto my mill - the loading time to get something like this from the ground onto the mill up the ramps is less than a minute and my winch is very slow!!  Once the log is up, the winch can then be used for rolling the cant or can be left hanging off the back side of the mill while we cut. The ramps can also be moved away easily to make lots of working room.

I like your hinged loader frame idea, but unless you can make it more "hands-off" such as with hydraulics I'm not sure it's saving anything - sorry to be negative!!



cheers eh?

[Dan_Shade]

i have to agree with John, parbuckling is the easiest way to do it.  doesn't take much of a winch or effort, either....

the one advantage to the loader type design is if you design it with hydraulics in mind, it would be easy to add a cylinder to that.

[Furby]

Not sure if this is what DeadHeader was talking about or not, but rather than make a pivot system, why not build a log "elevator"?
It could be used with a winch.
Think lifting the log straight up, and sending the weight straight down.
just roll the log onto the mill once the elevator is at the top.

[timcosby]

since you have an excavater do it the easy way. dig out where the mill will sit to lower the bed to ground level. build a retaining wall for the side you load from. drag the logs to the mill with a truck or whatever and push them onto the mill with your foot. been there done that.

[bandmiller2]

For the same amount of materials and labor you could build a thumb for your ex.Make a longer brow [dead deck] when the machine is home load it up.Frank C.

[Bob Dilts]

 If you use a 24v system for your endstands will that cause issues with a 12v powerpac?? I'm with Bandmiller2 look at ways to better control the logs loading with your excavator.

[John Bartley]

Not sure if this is what DeadHeader was talking about or not, but rather than make a pivot system, why not build a log "elevator"?
It could be used with a winch.
Think lifting the log straight up, and sending the weight straight down.
just roll the log onto the mill once the elevator is at the top.

This (above) is a pretty good idea!! You could even keep all your winch cables under the mill frame and use the same pulleys to increase the weight carrying ability.

Not bad .....

cheers

[Furby]

Another idea I had was rather than parbuckling a log up ramps, make a sled to slide up the ramps.
The winch cable can stay on and you roll the log from the 4x4s or whatever they are siting on, onto the sled.
Winch the sled to the top and roll the log onto the mill.

[Firebass]

By manufacturing the assembly you sketched up you are about 90 percent done with the hard part.  Just add hydraulics. be it lifting cylinders, drag chain or what ever you wouldn't  be sorry.  Besides hydraulic's are cool.

Steve

[DanG]

There's been a bunch of nifty ideas mentioned on this thread, but the simplest and cheapest option has been overlooked.  Use a vehicle to parbuckle the logs onto the mill.  A winch works great, but it is slow, and it takes just as long to pull the cable out as to take it in.  Just pull your truck up on the off-side of the mill, hook the cable to it and back up.  When the log is loaded, just pull the truck back up into position, ready for the next log.  I've tried every cheap and quick way I can think of, and this is the best of the lot. ;)

[Furby]

Even a lawn tractor will parbuckle good sized logs, longer ramps make it less of a pull as well.

[timcosby]

DANG  that boy he be smart!!!

[StorminN]

Thanks guys, a lot of good ideas here...

Fla_Deadheader, your point about not being able to control the log at the top of the cycle on the loader I drew up is reason enough for me not to build it.

Furby, the log elevator method is interesting... I'm picturing a vertical frame like a forklift, but can't quite picture what the top would look like and how you could make it so the log can roll over the top, onto the mill when it gets to the top. Also, it would need something to make sure the log doesn't roll off the elevator on its trip up. We have a couple of those non-powered, roll-around-by-hand, pump-the-lift-cylinder-with-your-foot forklifts at work, and I thought of trying one of those, but I was told they are only rated at 1,000lbs.

timcosby, I had never thought of digging a hole where the mill is! Talk about simple. If the ground weren't so wet where the mill is, I might do this... but I'm afraid if I dug down two feet, the frame of the mill would be underwater in the winter.

DanG, that is how I first started with my mill... parbuckling the logs with a vehicle pulling, instead of a winch. The vehicle was my little 10hp Cub Cadet tractor... it worked pretty good, but the problem is that the site where my mill is located is pretty tight, and the side of the mill opposite the dead deck is all woods. (You can get an idea of this from the picture above). So this means I couldn't pull from that side, I had to run a pulley, and pull from the loading side of the mill, and that means that the tractor and the logs I was loading were trying to live in the same spot. I guess I could get another pulley or two and try to pull from a different angle, but around the same time I was doing this, someone gave me a winch for my birthday, so I just started using the winch. Then I saw how slow the winch was, and I started using the excavator.

One thing I thought of yesterday was the possibility of running a 12V winch on 24V... I've got a cheap winch, so I'm willing to experiment. I bet it will run nearly twice as fast. The batteries I have for the lift on the mill and the conveyors are already wired at 24V.

I've been trying to avoid the complications of hydraulics, but Firebass is right... they are cool and I probably won't be sorry. Of course once I had a hydraulic power pack hooked up and a hydraulic log loader, I'd probably want a hydraulic turner and hydraulic dogs.:  I guess I'll have to find a hydraulic mill somewhere around here and go look at it.

Fla_Deadheader, what voltage is the forklift power pack that you bought?

Thanks again,
-N.

[Fla._Deadheader]

My powerpack is 24V DC, but, I'm sure you could find a 12VDC on Ebay, or, a local lift mechanic.

[StorminN]

Fla_Deadheader,

Cool... 24V would actually work better for me... I have always assumed forklifts ran higher voltages, like 72V or 120V...

I will check it out...

Thanks,
-Norm.

[Furby]

Invert a fork lift rack sorta.
Pulley and such would be on the bottom side of things so that when the lift was at the top, the log could roll right onto the mill.


Spring loaded kickers on the end of the forks or what ever you use will allow the log to roll onto the fork, but once past the kickers, they pop up preventing the log from rolling back off.


I belive a sled on ramps would be easier to bulid and cost less, but that's just a guess.

Just buy a power pack from WM if going that route.