tree stealing

[trouter]

Did a search and couldn't find anything on here and I know in the past it's been discussed. Anyway a friend of mine had 3 WO trees cut down on his property while the neighbor was having his timbered off, now the lumber co in question has a reputation for doing this. My question is what is his best course of action? I told him to get pics and i would ask on here to see what's the best avenue for him to take. Thanks.

[Mike_Barcaskey]

you need to find some one qualified to assess the value of the stolen trees
I go out, measure the stumps, find comparisons of the same species and size of the surrounding trees that are still standing. This will give a fairly good idea of the average of what was taken. figure up a value based on industry reports (I use PA Woodlands' Timber Market Report or past sales receipts to local mills) and present the report to the landowner. He will need to find a lawyer to work with and go after the logger for the money. Only one that I did last year wasn't settled before court. That involved Asplund and a ROW clearing.

[Riles]

Procedures vary by state, so tell us where the trees were and we can focus the help a little. Some states have better laws than others, but as far as I'm concerned you should always start with a call to the police.

[WDH]

Unless the trees were cut with criminal intent, generally a court will award up to treble damage for the harvested trees.  You would determine the fair market value of the trees like Riles said, or some other way that is defensible, and ask for a settlement that you are comfortable with  The company that purchased the timber might take your figure and settle.

If you ask for an outrageous amount, it will probably mean court.  In court, anything can happen.  Here is one of my experiences:

In the early 1990's while harvesting a timber tract, our logger inadvertantly cut four small loblolly pines a foot or two over the adjoining neighbors line.  The line was was not marked with a fence or any other visible signs of a property boundry because a developer had cut the larger tract into smaller tracts for sale, and this was an internal line.  The line had been flagged by a forester with orange flagging tape, and in the the thick brush, the fellerbuncher operator cut the four trees accidently by getting too close.  The neighbor was *pithed, and said that we did it on purpose.  I met with him and he threatened us with every pestilence he could summon, letters to the editor, get a TV film crew out, etc. 

We were clearly at fault, and we acknowledged that right from the beginning.  At the office, we figured the market value of the four trees was $50.  We knew that the landowner wanted to really make us pay big bucks for our mistake, so we determined what it would cost us to defend ourselves in court when he sued us.  The estimated cost was $3000 considering time lost and attorney's fees..

So, I offered him $3000 to settle.  He laughed in my face and said he wanted $10,000.  I told him that was not reasonable and that we would not pay $10,000.  He said that he would see us in court.  He sued us in small claims court.  I was there with our attorney.  The landowner was there representing himself.  We made our case to the judge, admitted our fault, established the fair maket value of the trees, and described our offer to the landowner, $3000. 

Then the landowner spoke and became very ugly and unprofessional.  He went on about how evil the big timber companies were preying on small landowners like him to take advantage of them by purposely harvesting their trees.  The judge asked questions.  He particularly wanted to know why the landowner did not accept our generous offer, and the landowner responded that he wanted to make an example out of us since he did not feel that we should be cutting trees anyway, especially not clearcutting since it was very ugly next to his property.  THe judge retired to his chambers to make a decision.

The judge established the fair market value of the trees at $50.  He said that since we were clearly at fault, he would award treble damages and instructed us to pay the landowner $150.  The landowner was beyond "fit to be tied". 

The moral of the story is that the landowner was ignorant of the law. 
Riles gave very good advice when he suggested that you determine the law governing this situation in your state.

If you are reasonable, you can get more than a fair settlement if you sit down with the people and discuss the situation in many cases.  Sometimes that doesn't work and you have to go the court route.  So, determine what the law is, determine what the trees are worth to you, and ask for that in a settlement that will satisfy you.  They just might take it.  If not, you have not lost anything, and you can still take them to court.

If you can prove criminal tresspass, that is another story.  Then you could ask for $1,000,000 or whatever your fancy.  But, remember, the burden of proof will be on you, and if you fail to make a case that proves it, it is likely the attorney fees will drawf your settlement.

Good luck, and I hope it works out to your satisfaction.

[trouter]

Thanks for all the good info so far. These were cut in Juniata County, Pa

[Ron Scott]

Ditto! to the above advice. One thing that you need to be sure of is the property line. If it goes to court, the judge will most likely ask to see the certificate of survey and proof of owership.

[metalspinner]

WDH,

That's a great real-life story there. Goes to show that people make honest mistakes and can try their best to resolve the problem.  It also shows the judge had a good head on his shoulders.

[trouter]

WDH,

That's a great real-life story there. Goes to show that people make honest mistakes and can try their best to resolve the problem.  It also shows the judge had a good head on his shoulders.

I was thinking the same thing, we need more judges like that.

[Riles]

Since you're in PA, sounds like Mike's your man.

I stand corrected. Unless you have reason to believe otherwise, your first call should be to the people who did the cutting. Give them the benefit of the doubt.

[pappy19]

I agree with most all of the above advice, except that I would emphasize more on the land survey before admitting to any fault. In the case of only 4 trees, it's probably not cost effective, but could be depending on the dollar values involved.

[Ron Wenrich]

I've been involved with several trespass cases in central PA.  The first thing that must be done is to make sure who the trees are on the property.  That will involve a survey of some type.  Some landowners think they know where their lines are located, but many do not.  They just have some sort of idea.

The next step is to measure the stump diameter and the stump height.  From there you can get a dbh measurement in the Forestry Handbook that is put out by the Society of American Foresters.  For white oak, it would take a 24" diameter stump to yield a tree that measures 18" at dbh, given a 1' high stump. 

If possible, you can get tree height from similar trees on adjoing properties.  From there, you'll be able to establish some sort of volume.   Let's say that those 3 trees ended up being 2 log trees and 18" in dbh.  The volume would be about 500 bf Doyle, or 700 bf International.

No matter what you think the value of the timber, you will not be able to prove they were veneer quality by looking at the stump.  Others have tried this manuever and they have failed.  You'll only be able to get back for what the average timber value is in your area.  The PA Woodlands Timber Report may be OK, but I'd rather go with making a few phone calls to some of the local mills to see what they're paying for white oak stumpage.  The Timber Report may understate what local prices are at.  With bad numbers, you'll look like a fool in front of a judge.  I've seen guys with really good credentials get blown out of the courtroom just because they didn't have good numbers or used bad procedures to establish value.

So, lets say that your 500 bf of timber is selling at $500/Mbf.  The value is about $250.  To my knowledge, PA is not a treble awards state.  I never had any go that way.  I was able to get market value and something for costs and damages, if they were reasonable.  You'll have to decide how far you want to take it.

Was the timber marked?  Who established the line?  That's important because you need to know who to go after.  I've seen consultants try to throw it on the landowner, even though they have established the line and did the marking.  Same goes for the logger who buys on his own.  The landowner has to guarantee title and defend it (if there was a contract so stating), but when someone else runs a boundary line and designates which trees are to be cut, things get a little blurry.

I probably have heard of the company you're talking about.  I may have even run into them in court.  They're going to plead ignorance or try to dump it on the landowner.  The better mills will pay for their mistake and go about their business.  Your best bet is to try the landowner first. 

[trouter]

Was the timber marked?  Who established the line?  That's important because you need to know who to go after.  I've seen consultants try to throw it on the landowner, even though they have established the line and did the marking.  Same goes for the logger who buys on his own.  The landowner has to guarantee title and defend it (if there was a contract so stating), but when someone else runs a boundary line and designates which trees are to be cut, things get a little blurry.

I probably have heard of the company you're talking about.  I may have even run into them in court.  They're going to plead ignorance or try to dump it on the landowner.  The better mills will pay for their mistake and go about their business.  Your best bet is to try the landowner first. 

Ron Yes you have probably heard of them in the past, as far as the timber being marked I'm not sure I wasn't over to see it I was approached about the matter Sunday. I asked if the lines were clearly marked and was told they were marked but not the best, so this could have been an accident, but knowing the CO I doubt it they have a reptuation in the area for this. This job would've been done by there loggers and the in company forester, so there's no consultant involved. Hipefully I'll talk to the affected landowner in the next couple of days and see hows it going, I emailed him this link so he could see how to proceed. I'm sure he appreciates  all the help.

[Dale Hatfield]

You can get a pretty good idea of what they took . Measure the distance from the stump to where the log was cut from the top. As long as the tree didnt  get felled down a steep cliff all things sould line up within a few feet. Look for saw dust piles.  Take pics document everything.
A company that could be know for doing such knows ,the costs involved in the law most people wont follow through.
Cut a cookie from the stump and match it to the log where they were sold. If this is something that just happened. If its been months your probably out of luck with this tactic.

[Ron Scott]

Both methods that Ron and Dale described may need to be used to determine the volume cut and removed depending upon the evidence left on the trespass area.

Ditto! on the need for pictures or video, also paint mark and number each cut stump so that all the evidence is well displayed in the trespass report.

Also access other resource damages, if any, that may have resulted from the trespass such as soil rutting from the machinery used, damage to any remaining trees, soil erosion, damage to wildlife, den, cavity, or snag trees that may have been knocked down getting to the timber valued trees, broken fences, posts, area aestheics, road damage etc. etc.

I usually do an "All Resource Damage Assessment" if it is warranted. This usually gets the tespasser's attention and the judge has often made awards beyond just the timber values.