On demand propane hot water heaters?

[sbishop]

Hi, anyone here using any on demand hot water heaters?  vent or ventless...make/model! Not looking for anything expense or cheap, something in between!

Am going to try and get some items i need for the camp this winter so hopefully next year i'll be in it  8)

Thanks
Sbishop

[zopi]

I'm using a Rinnai...mounted to the outside wall of the house..so no vent...I live in a house with four females...so you can imagine that having unlimited hot water is beneficial.

one thing..get the remote control so you can dial the temp back manually...uses less propane for washing dishes and the like...full throttle uses alot of fuel.

[Jasperfield]

I have a vented Rennai water heater and like it a lot...a whole lot.

I designed my house so as to eliminate long supply runs from the heater. The two baths are stacked and the kitchen sink is within 20 lineal feet from the hot side of the compact unit.

You will not get hot water until the pipes have discharged their loads of standing, static water. That's not different than any other non-circulating system.

It fires within 2 seconds of demand flow; And it provides water heated to the set temperature until the cows come home. It's just like Rush says it is.

I live at 4227' MSL on the NC-TN line where this year's high temperature, at my house, was 83 F. I have a traditionally (not conventionally) built Southern Appalachian-German, hand hewn, house and a like styled interior/exterior frame-exposed timberframe shop attached via covered porch. It (house) measures 21' X 37' and is 42' tall at the top of the 12:14 white oak shaked roof. Shop is 17' X 30'. I'm a surveyor and designed it in my Autocad program.

Now, son, let me tell ye; It gets cold, cold here in the winter. It first frosted here last Wednesday morning. And the wind blows as waves during a storm.

I didn't try to build an energy efficient house. I tried to build a house just like what was built here in the 1840s when my family first came. I've not done anything to the house that's considered "green". However, I did use 2" R-50 foam roof insulation covered on both sides with foil. This eliminated the 10"-15" thick-looking roof.

I have no air conditioning system of any kind.

My primary heat is a traditionally built Rumford masonry fireplace w/rock chimney, and a Heartland (Canadian) wood burning cookstove w/water boiler (not hooked into potable supply). I've also got one each (upstairs & downstairs) Rennai Energysaver 1004F electrically thermostatted & fanned propane fired heaters. They're set to come on at 48 when I'm gone for more than a day. They've provided essentially no service a'tall since I'm here on the farm at least in the morning and at night.

My electric bills from French Broad Electric Membership have been (post completion) $28.73 to $23.10 per month.

One of my pretty good friends who works for the Propane company said yesterday that it was gettin' hard to get Rennai products because the price of kerosene here has been diverting Monitor heater customers to convert to Propane i.e. Rennai.

If this has not been helpful, maybe it's been entertaining.

Jasperfield

[underdog]

My 2 cents = http://www.palomatankless.com/
Look closer at Rennai reviews - customer satisfaction - parts and service - corporation - etc. I was less than impressed.
Also consider point of use types they are usually electric but are very efficient.

[ely]

i just purchase an electric model made by power star, acually made by bosch but called a power star. anyway it should be here this week sometimes i think i paid near 500 bucks for it. 480 something maybe it has a 10 year warranty. i got the smaller model. i will let yall know how it works out.

[sbishop]

Zopi, the outside model.....they don't freeze up in the winter?

[ljmathias]

Consumer Reports just did an evaluation of some models- compared on-demand with traditional and found little difference in the overall economics.  The on-demand were more expensive and more expensive to install and didn't save that much on utilities per year.  They did find (as many others have) that gas-fired is the cheaper way to go for either tank or tankless.  My two sons are plumbers and have been installing a lot of Renai's (spelling?)- they like them and claim there are advantages other than just economics especially longevity with the new tank models: there isn't much!  My mother-in-law has a hot water heater that came with the house- 20 years old- but my sons say the new tank models are being replaced at 5-10 years now while the tankless seem to last longer.

I think it all comes down to two things: shooting at moving targets and trade-offs.  As manufacturers continue to "cut costs" and their CEOs get more greedy (want their bonuses each year with diminishing profits), quality and longevity go down.  This applies to both tank and tankless models (and lots of other things like cars, trucks and other appliances).  Trade-offs is another issue that is also a moving target: what used to be a reasonable compromise when energy costs were low are no longer acceptable.  Seems more and more, however, that "going green" wins both in terms of economics and environment, but I think you have to spend a lot more time getting all the facts.  Remember, it always comes down to "Buyer beware!" and getting more so as the economy goes further and further South- it stopped briefly here in Mississippi but has now headed down to Mexico and points even further South.  If it keeps going far enough, it will certainly be heading North again someday, hey?

Lj

[Thehardway]

Food for thought:  Gas/Propane is a commodity which has limited availability and is very volatile in price as we have seen over the last 3-4 years.  Electric is also tied very close to coal and gas prices in most areas. It may be affordable today but what is the long term picture?  The best way to heat water is with the unlimited power of the sun.  This can be done with a cheap plate collector or a more efficient but expensive evacuated tube collector.  The second method and very efficient if you are already burning wood as your primary heat source is a few coils of copper tubing around the stove pipe.  After installation all of these are free which means the ROI is much better than what you would get with some of the more popular on demand heaters.

[Alexis]

From what I read, on demand water heater makes sense if you live in the south. In the north, all the "lost" energy of keeping the water hot in the tank is useful 6 month per year as it heat the house ( a little)

Alexis

to add on thehardway comment... go to www.motherearthnews.com if you want information on some simple diy solar hot water project

[submarinesailor]

Propane is a commodity which has limited availability and is very volatile in price as we have seen over the last 3-4 years.

I just ordered propane for the house down in Syria/Madison County.  The current price is $3.89 per gallon.  THAT'S VERY EXPENSIVE!!!!!!!!!!!! >:( >:( >:(  To put into perspective, it equates to about $42.49 per million BTUs (MMBTU or DTH).  The current futures price for November natural gas at the trading hub is $6.60.  That makes it about $8.80 delivered to the northern Virginia area.  And yes, I checked around and also checked the DOE web site for the average price for Virginia.  Deliveries for the week of 6 October averaged $3.06 per gallon.  All I can say about this - GET OVER TO NATURAL GAS IF YOU CAN!!!!!!!!!!!!

Bruce

[Joel Eisner]

Thehardway has an idea but it is not really practical with today's EPA indoor wood stoves since coils of tubing around the stove or pipe will change the efficiences of the stove especially the temp of the stove pipe leading to lower flue gasses and greater creasote build up.  Also, copper in the fire box can be dangerous, especially if there are soldered seams since they can melt if the water runs dry and you can get a steam explosion.

Solar is the way to go.   8)

[sbishop]

Thanks everyone for all the suggestions. i've looked at the Rinnai products and they are bit expense.  i've been in contact with "PAPPY" and i remember his setup at his camp. He is using a hot water heater from an RV.

For around $200, i can have hot water at the camp. which isn't too bad! Since the camp is only used on weekends from May till Oct. I think this might be the best way to go now but maybe down the road solar!

i've been using my old travel there at my camp site for the last 2 years and never ran out of hot water while taking a shower...except the second person right after me  ;D...but if you wait 10min...no problems!

Excellent site and thanks for all the help!

Sbishop
PS. Picked up a one piece shower, oak vanity, sink and all the hardware for $200 yesterday, only 3 months old!!!!!!! for the camp!

[Thehardway]

Joel,

Good point!

You do not want to place copper tubing in direct contact with stove pipe and definitley do not want it inside the firebox.  Wood burns very hot and steam is defintely a consideration.  I greatly oversimplified it in my post.  Although a homebrew woodstove water heater is a possibility, any one attempting it should research the safety aspects fully before firing it up.  Failure to do so may result is a big BOOM or a chimney fire.


I forget there are some folks out there that may not think things through fully before trying!  (that occasionally includes me :-[ )

[krusty]

http://www.tanklesswaterheater.ca/

is where I bought mine. easy to deal with and I use mine for whole house radiant heat. and burn wood too when I am home.

it is easy to install yourself and you need to vent all of the gas ones

[Brad_bb]

Keep in mind that if you are not using hot water regularly, you could get some corrosion or bacteria build up in the water heater that will flush for while when you turn it on.  Maybe that's one advantage for the tankless, you don't have the water sitting there.  Addtionally I was a This Old House episode where they used a tankless heater and also connected a recirculation pump connected to a motion sensor.  So If you entered the bathroom, the sensor would cause the heater to start heating water and circulate it though the run so when you opened a faucet, you'd have hot water right away. A clever luxury.

[moonhill]

I wonder if the dog going in for a drink would set it off?    Tim

[Brad_bb]

If the dog is drinking from the toilet, then you have a bad owner who's not keeping his water bowl filled.  But if the dog goes in the bathroom because you've trained him to take his own bath, then he will get instant hot water from the tankless with recirc pump.  Technically you do then have a tank - the pipe going to the fixtures and the return volume, but it's only heating when motion activated.