Tractor Shed Design (Renamed)

[Jim_Rogers]

Normally the reference face is the outside of a building so that all surfaces are flush for siding to go over and not bump up or over.
When a bent is trial fit or laid out such as you have shown the reference face is up, so you can fit things correctly, sometimes it makes sense to do it like this:



In the above photo you can see the broad wall fit up of this frame, and we have bored the holes and put some pegs in to pull the joints up tight.
We do this up on saw horses to make it easy to inspect the down side and see how tight that side of the joint is also. And if things don't fit together it's easy to pull apart and correct, without lifting timbers back up onto the horses to work on them.
You do need quite a large herd of horses to do this, but with my simple saw horse design you can make up many the same height, all out of 1x6 boards.

You need to check all housings, tenon sides, tenon faces, and mortise pockets with a combination square that they are cut truly 90° to the reference face and the correct size.
Check your mortise width with the body of the framing square. If the 2" side won't go into the mortise then it's to narrow. Check your offset that the mortise is truly 2" off the layout face. If it is then widen the mortise on the opposite side of the mortise.

In my brace story, I show how to set a caliper to the width of the framing square for checking the size of the tenon. We also use this to check the offset thickness of the mortise.

I don't have a picture of me doing this but I could take one if you don't understand.

Keep working at it and you'll get it....

Good luck....

Jim Rogers

[Raphael]

How big are the gaps?

  Some gaps are ok but you want to look at where they are and what's going to happen as the timber shrinks.  The most important thing is that the surfaces that should be taking the load are in fact doing so.
Some of what you see in test fitting may change once the bent is up and the forces on it change.

  There is rather lengthy discussion of gaps in here titled: tolerances in frame construction and another in the TFGuild's Ask the Experts forum.  Everyone has a different viewpoint so it gives you a good feel for what's acceptable.

[Max sawdust]

How big are the gaps?

About 1/8 inch in most cases.  some are on bearing surfaces. 
max

[Jim_Rogers]

During fit up we look at things like, how long is the tenon? how deep is the mortise?
If the tenon is 5" long, and the mortise is 4 7/8" deep then there's your 1/8" of an inch.
We cut all mortise to the full depth, and then trim the tenon back at least 1/8" less, to that it won't bottom out. Especially when the timbers shrink.

Next we make sure that all the surfaces of the end grain of the timber that has the tenon on it are in the same plane, all the way around the tenon. If this is off then it will hold a joint open.

This is what I'm talking about:



In the above drawing I have colored the end grain green. This surface has to be in flat and 90° to the reference side of the timber.


The sides of the mortise have to be 90° to the side of the timber.
You can check them like this:



Here you can see the housing for a brace pocket being checked for 90° to the reference face.

Also we check that the side of the tenon is truly offset the correct distance. Whether it is 2" or 1 1/2". It doesn't matter as you'll use your framing square to check.
Like this:



In this photo we see a framing square on the tenon and a try square on the surface of the piece. The try square is slid across the piece and if it hits the framing square then the tenon is not offset enough. If it rides over the square and there is a gap, then the tenon is offset too much.

And another way to check a tenon is like this:



In this photo we see a framing square on the reference face of the piece. And a combination square on top of the framing square. The depth set on the combination square ruler is for the width of the framing square and the depth of the offset. This way we can check the entire surface of this tenon and see if it's offset the correct amount.

This is a good way to check that the side of the tenon is parallel to the reference face of the piece.

If is isn't parallel, you'll have problems putting it together.

I hope these photos will help you.

Jim Rogers

[Max sawdust]

Jim,
Thanks for the tutorials.  Keep it coming!!  Wow good stuff..
I think I am beginning to understand what is causing my rather consistent gaps on the shoulders of my through half dovetail to post connections.  You pointed  it out in you photo of the brace pocket ;)  I have a plan of attack to correct the problem.  Shortening my ties on the tight shoulder by 1/16-1/8" will help with my rafter to post top fit too!

Square rule is beginning to make sense now, and I can think of joints that I deviated from it.  ie the poor fitting birdsmouth rafter that was just cut with my template, without registering all of the lines around the timber :  The one I registered the lines on all sides of the timber came out good.

Jim, when is the book coming out?  Seems like you have enough material for a REAL functional book on Timber Framing!


Raphael,
Thanks for the suggested threads, the TFG tolerance thread eased my mind quite a bit ;)

Thanks again for the guidance..
Max

[Max sawdust]

If you want a ridge beam, lower it. Put it be between the two king posts.
and place the rafters over the top of it with a birds mouth
This shows a ridge beam with a fancy end on it but you'd just put a tenon on it and make a through mortise on the king.
Lowering the ridge beam relieves the top of the king post where the two principal rafter would go and you can run a brace from this lowered ridge beam to the bottom of the king as long as it doesn't run into the struts' mortises location.

I have a ridge beam question:
I see no way to drive pegs into the king post to secure the lowered ridge beam, because the principal rafters are in the way.  I am thinking of using a through half dovetail, and just using the wedge to secure it.  Also I am thinking of making this through half dovetail upside down so the wedge is driven in from the underside of the ridge beam, to avoid interfering with the principal rafter to king post joints.  Sensible? Crazy?  What is traditionally done in this type of situation were pegs can not be driven?

[Jim_Rogers]

If you're going with common rafters between the principals and they will rest on the lowered ridge beam make the dovetails regular and have the wedges on top.
If you're only using the lowered ridge beam for holding the two bents together then you can do whatever you want. I wouldn't use it upside down though gravity has a way for upsetting things over time, and you don't want to allow it to do any more.
Or just make through tenons and bore the peg holes at an angle so you can drive the pegs.

Jim Rogers

[Max sawdust]

Thanks Jim.
You are right gravity has a way of winning over time ;)

Cutting my queen posts thanks to your lessons square rule is starting to make sense.  Tenons are coming out nice and square to the reference face. ;D  I just re-read your post on cutting braces.  I am feeling confident after reading the well written description of the process.

Thanks again
Max

[Max sawdust]

I had fun cutting braces I used red oak 3.25x5.25.  Followed Jim's tutorial on cutting shouldered braces.  Made 10 of them and they came out very well.  Cut my first pair of housed brace pockets and mis cut them :

Here is my question:  24" braces (with 1/2" shoulder and a 1/2" housing) should the far edge or shoulder edge (point of hypotenuse) be at 24" or 23.5" because of the 1/2" housing? 

It was hard for me to visualize the brace mortise with the 1/2" housing  :(  It changes everything :

I cut  at 24"   Looks like I need to move the 45 degree "front" of the pocket 1/2 inch closer to the post/tie side.  Then use a 1/2" shim on the shoulder side of the mortise to fill the gap.

This shouldn't be the end of the world because they are housed and the shims will only be seen on close inspection on the inside of the frame.
max

[Jim_Rogers]

Here is my question:  24" braces (with 1/2" shoulder and a 1/2" housing) should the far edge or shoulder edge (point of hypotenuse) be at 24" or 23.5" because of the 1/2" housing? 

You should read this post: Brace Layout Questions and Answers thread

If that doesn't answer your question then I'll try again.

Jim Rogers

[Max sawdust]

Cut my first pair of housed brace pockets and mis cut them :
This shouldn't be the end of the world because they are housed and the shims will only be seen on close inspection on the inside of the frame.
max

Just an update here and maybe some one can learn from my mistakes.

Well, I thought I had my brace pocket dilemma figured out cut 6 that came out quite good.  Yesterday I cut one and did pre fit to drill holes (tricky area ridge beam/King post)  What do you know it did not fit right  :D  Checked my pocket measurements and they were fine.  Finally thought gee maybe I should measure the length of the brace :D  Sure enough 1/8 inch short :  Measured all the braces and found 4 of them short.  (Lucky I only mucked up and will have to shim the first set of pockets I cut.)
The hypotenuse of a right triangle with 24" legs should be 33 15/16 these four braces are 33 13/16, so I will cut my brace pockets for these braces to 23 11/16 instead of 24 inches.

It is always fun to solve a mystery, and I must say cutting housed braces requires meticulous attention to detail.

Max

[Max sawdust]

First Bent going up


Interesting rigging.  One line going over the garage and anchored to the garage wall the second line anchoring to a tree.  Then I used the Farmi winch to raise the bent.  (Farmi is rated for 8000LB) so no problems with a little ole bent.


More pics later.
max

[Thomas-in-Kentucky]

Very neat Max!

I too find housed braces to be a pain in the butt, but they are definitely stronger.  I have, on occasion, cheated by inserting a shim here or there.

BTW, sorry to stray from the topic, but how do you like that winch on your tractor?  Have you had a chance to use it much?  What size tractor do you have it mounted to?  Got any more pictures of that setup?!  What do you call it - a Farmi?

-Thomas

[Max sawdust]

Thomas,
I have a little tiny 24 horse diesel tractor with an oversize front end loader. If I put weight in the bucket I can pull just about anything.  Yes I use it quite a bit for logging. (Last year 365 days a year this year less.)  Biggest things I have pulled are 32" Red Oak at 8' and 24-28" Aspen at 60' length up hill.  Has 180' cable and then I have a 100' extension so I log right from the main trails and just skid everything out.  The winch is great for taking down difficult trees (hanging over houses) or pulling trees that hung up down. 
Best $3K ever spent   It is a Farmi, and I got it from Hudson forestry out of NY.  Google it you will find it.  I will take more pics.

Once I got the hang of housed braces I like them, not so bad to fine tune the fit, and they look slick from the inside.
Max

[Max sawdust]

OK....
Here are some pictures.  Got the frame up everything went together pretty well considering it is my real first frame    It is mostly Red Pine, but has a little of everything.  (White Pine, Red Oak, Big tooth Aspen)

Raising the first bent with da Deere and farmi winch

Second bent up and 8x8 White Pine ridge set and 8x8 Red Oak plates set. Ahh yes I am paying homage to the forest, I have a little Fir nailed to the peak ;)  (Not sure why I did this, but every picture of an erected frame has it, and I did not get killed by an 8x8 oak so I figured I better do it too ;D)

Plate to post detail and housed brace detail.

Placed the Oak and Red pine secondary rafters, and Aspen girts for siding.  (Rafters are just butted and spiked at the peak and have a housed bird mouth at the plate.)  They are not going anywhere ;)

Nice elevation looking twords the garage.  The frame is free standing from the Garage.

Nice pic to see the raised plate, lowered tie

This frame was raised with just two people.  Guess it is the German in me, I would rather engineer a solution with ropes pulleys come alongs and cantilevers than ask the neighbors for help :D :

Next I need to wait for my new 8" jointer to arrive so I can four square some aspen off the mill for the roofing and for the ship lap siding

Kinda cool, it cost me NOTHING in materials to build a 12x18 shed   (ya ya, I am constantly reminded of my substantial investment in machinery and tools to make that happen.)

I will post more pictures once I get the siding and roof on.

Next Project is a 10x10 TF entry way to a house, after that I am considering some kind of TF design/ building class before, I try to land some paying jobs.  I think I am addicted.

Max

[beenthere]

Lookin great Max sawdust.

Thanks for the pics, and 'grats on the accomplishment.

[Max sawdust]

Thanks Beenthere,
I really appreciated all the advice the folks on FF gave me.  Other than my parents barn it is the first TF structure I have ever stood in, really gives one a neat feeling of solidity. 
Max

[Raphael]

  Other than my parents barn it is the first TF structure I have ever stood in, really gives one a neat feeling of solidity. 

  Ain't that the truth.  First thing people say upon walking into our house; "Man this place isn't going anywhere!"
Really looks nice Max, I think you're spoiling your tractor.

[Don P]

After all that math... stronger?  I'll assert, equivalent  ;D
It does look good.
Nice job Max 

[Jim_Rogers]

Max:
I was looking for something else and found this old thread about building your tractor shed.
I then search for your gallery to see it all done and enclosed, as you had posted you would show us some pictures of it when you had it done.
I couldn't find any pictures in your gallery about it being done and enclosed.
Can you post some pictures?

Jim Rogers

[Max sawdust]

Jim thanks for the inquiry...
Actually I finally got it enclosed this summer.  (Non paying jobs get the lowest priority :)
Will get pics this fall as soon as we figure out what the new digital camera will be.
Max

[Max sawdust]

 









Finally got it closed in.  The tarp lasted for a few years so I just let it be. 

Roof deck is rough sawn 6/4 hemlock, with tar paper and shingles. 
Gables are rough sawn "spalted" 4/4 aspen with sheets of Northern White Cedar bark covering it.
Side walls are slabs of Northern white cedar.
100% scrap ;D
Max

[Brad_bb]

I wanted to check out those pics in your photo album (bigger), but it looks like you have the link to your album turned off. 

What did you do with the short braces?  They can always be used in another frame if you make one set of mortises to fit the shorter brace.  No sense letting that work go to waste.

[beenthere]

Brad_bb
Go to the Image Archives button along the top, and you can get to Max's gallery.

Would like to see larger images of the building.  ;D ;D ;D

[Max sawdust]

I will try again with bigger pictures! 










I still have the short brace, turned out only one was short....
thanks
max