any opinions one of those jobs

[semologger]

I am cutting a job of loblolly pine. its 18 years old size is from 3 inch to 9 inch trees. I am taking out every forth row and am going back and thinning after i have the rows out. It has to be down to between 250 and 300 trees per acre. Then it has 9 acres of food plots to be clear cut. In all there are around 600 or so trees per acre i think. But here is the kicker.

I have been having a hard time getting this job cut with trying to find a home for this timber. Also breakdowns and trucking. The land owner came to me and said it has to be done in 2 weeks i am down to friday now. because the goverment program he is on told him so. He is on the CRP and NRCS programs were he gets paid to have this timber on his land. Its 50 acres. If its not done he is going to be kicked off the program and have to pay back alot of money. He thinks around 100 grand ballpark figure. I have got him paying for my diesel and hydrualic fluid now. Just so i can get done all i can. But he moved in a trac hoe and a dozer for the food plots. i cut 2 acres already and there is 7 left. These guys are getting paid by the hour 100 for the hoe and 75 for the dozer. They think its my job to get the wood after they knock it down. Well more like make a huge mess for me to clean up. I am doing every thing i can do to help this guy out but do you think i should be charging him to do this job cause i am sure not getting rich off it. Even if there is 500 trees per acre thats 3500 trees i have to cut stumps off of. One more thing stupid about his job no tops or anything can be left in the pine stand they have to be removed. also nothing can be burnt. Sorry so long

[cheyenne]

If he didn't tell you the time constraints & circumstances upfront make him pay for whatever it will cost to do the job on time if he won't pay walk away. If you were advised of the circumstaces & time constraints in advance & you can't complete the job, Lesson learned but i'll bet he'll hold you liable. I've never met anybody yet who would not listen to reason. Why should you be expected to clean up somebody elses mess. If there's a contract get to your lawyer now!....Be careful.....Cheyenne

[Ron Scott]

Yes, what does your contract say as to the harvest's time constraints etc.? It also should say that you are to cut "standing trees" and not "bulldozed" fallen timber.

Liability will rest on what the harvest contract says. Hopefully you have one.

[beenthere]

semologger

If push comes to shove, you might contact the local office about the ""CRP and NRCS"" deadline. If they understand the situation, I'd think they will cut some slack.

This doesn't sound like a good situation for you to be in, but then cannot judge who needs to do what, and when. As said, hope you are protected with a well-written contract, and have a leg to stand on in this job.

[DanG]

Info is a bit skimpy to make a clear judgement, but based on what we have, my gut says you are being set up.  That deadline sounds like bulloney to me.  I can't picture him getting the boot from the programs with the harvest in progress. :  It sounds more like he's getting pressure from somewhere else, like the hunting club that is leasing the land maybe? ???  I'm thinking there has been some serious foot-dragging going on, if there was a known deadline to be met.  Unless he contracted with you quite a while back to do the work, it sounds like he is turning his own poor planning into YOUR emergency.

This brings up a question that I've wondered about.  Do loggers ever hire their own Consulting Forester to cover them in these situations?  There are loads of admonitions hereabouts for landowners to do that, but I never see anything about loggers using them to protect their own interests.

[Ron Scott]

Yes, Loggers do hire Consulting Foresters at times to protect their interests in a situation or dispute or to mark and appraise timber for them.

Yes, I would contact the Conservation District Forester or whoever is administering the CPR and NRCS program for an extension of time to get the job done properly. As stated, something doesn't seem right if all parties are working in "good faith" to get the job done.

[SwampDonkey]

I was kinda wondering where this 100 grand penalty came from. 6" average pine on 50 acres worth $100,000, and not very dense at that. Where? You already indicated it's been tough marketing the stuff. Wow, talk about inflating timber valuation with subsidies.  I assume the government must be paying the owner so much a year to maintain timber land vs development and maybe defer land tax? I guess I don't understand the CRP and NRCS programs.

A lot of speculation can pour from my fingers over this. :D

However, I don't think it's right to expect you to maul over knocked down trees to fish logs and pulpwood out of the mess. Almost sounds like a lot of loggers passed knowing the small volumes, small piece size, markets and time constraints and maybe rotten deal. I hope you have a good contract.

There seems to be a lot of missing menu items at the dinner party.

[semologger]

i knew there was a deadline on the job. I told him i would do everything i could do to get done. I knew i wouldnt be able to get it done with all my luck ive been having. There is a forester on the job and he knows all the heck i have had. He agrees we have done all that we can do on the job. He says this is the most jinks job he had seen. He had been in contact with the CRP and other office and said i am making progress. He asked them what would happen if i didnt get it done and that  was not a big problem. From what i got out of him. I get along with him real good. He agrees the land owner has just dragged his feet on the job. The forester is who found me to cut the job. Really there is nobody else around here that will cut the job. Even after he found me the land owner dragged his feet on contacting me.

Everything blew up on the job when the land owner came back in town and talked to the CRP people. He lives in texas and the job is in arkansas. He said he never got along with the guy in 25 years. The forester even got into it with them when he argued about leaving the tops in the pine stand. He lost that battle and the tops have to be put in the oak stand. He has worked alot of these pine stands in southern arkansas. He said this is the worst job he has ever seen.

As far as a contract there never was one. We will see what happens friday i think thats the deadline they gave him but the forester said that the other offices are out of town this week. Also i think the land owner is going back to texas thursday. Time will tell i guess.

[Ron Scott]

I guess that without a binding contract there isn't any binding responsibiliy on anyone's part to get the job done in a timely manner according to any documented job specifications and reimbursements.

I don't understand anyone getting involved in a timber harvest without a writen contract to perform. I guess that you aren't obligated to do anything that you don't wish to do in this case and are wide open to the whims of the forester and landowner if you choose to be.

[semologger]

We usualy dont cut much private. I usualy cut of the U.S. forest service. You have to sign alot of paper work with them. They make a book for every job you cut.

[Ron Scott]

Then you know contracts well. The USFS contracts leave no stone unturned. ;)

[semologger]

tell me about it. We had some problems getting all their stuff right one time. They ended up banning us from cutting on them for  awhile we can go back cutting in about 2 months. They never had a problem with our performance out in the woods. Just over paper work. Thats mostly dads fault though. Him and the main forester never have got along.  As far as cutting for the Missouri department of conservation always a clean record. They like it when we cut for them if they have a job that needs cut they will do what they can to cut corners to get us on it.

I found out today even if this guy gets kicked off the program he still wants us to finish the job up. So thats good news not so much stress. The dozer guy did his best on putting the trees down after we talked to him. Still a mess but its not a wadded up mess. He fixed the road a bunch in some problem areas for us also. Maybe it will all work out. If Mother nature will cooperate. NO RAIN.

[Ron Scott]

There is a benefit to cooperation and coordinating the activities of having a dozer working on site also. Getting the trees cut in advance of the dozer work should satisfy all parties and improve the cooperation and get the best results.

[semologger]

They already blew threw the food plots. My cutter is a shear head so i am going to just use it to bunch up the wood ahead of the skidder. I might be slower but at least i am still going to get the wood.

[timberfaller390]

so how did this job turn out

[Rocky_Ranger]

Then you know contracts well. The USFS contracts leave no stone unturned. ;)

The forest service don't cotton to unturned stones - it is ridiculous the amount of work going into a timber sale, but when it's done it is a thing of beauty....  Shuffling papers is part of doing business these days.

[Gary_C]

The forest service don't cotton to unturned stones - it is ridiculous the amount of work going into a timber sale, but when it's done it is a thing of beauty.... 

Beauty is not what I have heard these stacks of paperwork called.  ;D ;D

The last MN DNR contract I signed took a half a day, had a 5 page, 31 point checklist, signs to be posted, lock boxes and load tickets to be prepared, and was just an over the counter/informal sale. And when all was done, the forester was required by the state rules to not touch my check. He was only allowed to prepare the envelope and hold it open while I placed the check in the envelope and then he had to seal it while I watched.  :

Yes, there were some other words used to describe the rule makers from the main office.   :D :D

[Rocky_Ranger]

I agree on the paperwork, I meant when the timber sale is cut out and you can stand back and admire the "restoration of fire-adapted ecosystems" (meaning silviculture at work)..  A normal EA, BE, and Roads Analysis for a watershed takes about 5-6 months and at least 200 pages.  The contract itself, with a roads package and inspections, easily tops another 200-300 pages.  Cost of doing business in these modern times.  We do it very well here on the Mena, to the tune of about 30 million board feet per year.

[SwampDonkey]

That's what is not fair when you have to compete in the global market place where things are not equal among players.  But, at the same time who do you blame, we are buying the stuff. And if we don't the neighbors will.