Temperate Mahogany?

[Dodgy Loner]

I was reading my favorite book on ornamental plants, Manual of Woody Landscape Plants, by UGA professor Michael Dirr, this week (to be accurate, it's the only book on ornamental plants I own, but it is a complete and informative resource, for sure).  I came across a tree that I was not familiar with, but the scientific name caught my eye: Toona sinensis, formerly known as Cedrela sinensis.  It caught my eye because Cedrela odorata is a very important tropical timber known as Spanish-cedar.  Spanish-cedar is not a true cedar, but rather a hardwood closely related to, and often used as a substitute for, mahogany.  The color, density, and working properties of the two are all very similar.  Since Toona sinensis was similar enough to Cedrela to be considered by some authors to be in the same genus, I reasoned that the wood of the two may be very similar as well.  A little research indicates that different species of Toona, particularly the Hawaiian species, Toona ciliata, are actually important timber species.  I found a picture of Toona ciliata, and it looks very similar to Spanish-cedar.  I also found an online supplier that will sell 50 Toona sinensis seeds for $3.00. 

Toona ciliata


Cedrela odorata


So I'm thinking about doing a little research into a possible temperate alternative to mahogany.  According to Michael Dirr, the tree has been grown on the UGA campus and is supposed to do well in Zones 5-7, so I'm in the right area to grow it.  It also grows quickly.  I'm sure some of you are aware that the bane of many fencerows, Chinaberry, is also a member of the mahogany family.  Chinaberry also has wood that is similar to mahogany, but it is decidedly ring-porous and probably a little harder, if not heavier.  The last thing I want to do is introduce another Chinaberry to the South, so I plan to be careful with these plants and make sure they don't overstep their bounds.  I'm also hoping that the wood will be diffuse-porous, but I'm afraid the lumber may end up looking more like Chinaberry than mahogany.  But hey, that's what experimenting is all about.  I plan to purchase some seeds and update my progress periodically.  Anybody around here familiar with Toona?

[SwampDonkey]

Anybody around here familiar with Toona?

Only from the can. ;D


But seriously, is this home on the lot or at work that you'll be experimenting in "controlled" conditions? I don't know anything about what is taboo or otherwise. But, I don't wanna read in the news about another experiment gone bad. I guess I'm cautiously optimistic for you. My next question is: What's wrong with the tree species your already blessed with in Georgia? Work a little harder with butternut, maybe you can find some canker resistant ones. ;D

[Dodgy Loner]

Nothing wrong with 'em.  I just like to experiment.  As my woodworking skills improve, I expect that I'll be looking to build some Queen Anne or Chippendale furniture, and a lot of that stuff doesn't look quite right when done in native woods.  Mahogany is also much easier carve than most high-quality native furniture woods.  I've never seen a ball-and-claw leg done in maple, walnut or cherry.  There's a reason for that.  Butternut would probably make a good substitute given it's carving qualities, but my butternuts haven't even sprouted yet, so they'll be a while before I get to harvest them ;D.

As for experimenting gone wrong, Toona is already used as a street tree in Philadelphia, Washington, D.C., Paris, France, and even granola central, San Francisco.  As I mentioned previously, it has already been used on the UGA campus.  I can assure you that I'll take more care to be sure they don't escape into the wild than in any of those places!

[Dodgy Loner]

Found another species of toona (Toona februfuga) that is used for timber.  Also posted a picture of Honduran mahogany (Swietenia mahagoni) for comparison.

Toona febrifuga


Swietenia mahagoni

[SwampDonkey]

Well I just figured you'd like a fella to reply to your thread. But as to carved feet, I'm not so sure about that assertion. I'll have to check my uncles 19C dining room table legs. I'm pretty sure those are either ash or maple because the end board with it was ash.

[Dodgy Loner]

I'm talking about 18th century ball-and-claw feet, not just any feet.  I've seen carved feet on an white oak Arts-and-Crafts style dining room table from the early 1900s, but they were embryonic compared to the incredible carving on mahogany Chippendale furniture.  Not that you can blame the craftsman for his underwhelming efforts; I wouldn't want to spend much time carving white oak either :D

Just ordered the seeds.  We'll see how it goes

[SwampDonkey]

I was talking ball and claw to, I'm not that slow. :D What's in a name anyway? I guess I'm one of them guys that bulk at a price based on name. Well sure they were great artisans, but people have a tendency to mystify and dazzle hoping to add to the value. Lots of that shown at them Antique Road Show tapings. :D I've seen equal work, just not the name. ;)


They used Mahogany also because it was different and also readily available as it was used as ship ballast. So wasn't rock. :D

Now get those butternut to grow, let Brazil grow those snake boards. ;D ;)

[Dodgy Loner]

I completely agree that the values places on those old pieces of furniture are outrageous, hence my desire to make some of my own :D.  I also agree that the reason they used mahogany was because it was readily available to English and early American craftsmen through the trade networks established by the old colonial system.  However, I would argue that the dramatic carving style of Chippendale furniture evolved as a direct result of the availability of the easily carved mahogany lumber.

Before the 1730's, almost all of the woodwork made for upper-class Americans was made from the hard native timbers.  As a result, ornamentation was generally from turned columns and legs, since turnings were easy to produce and the hard woods held crisp detail.  Any carvings were usually very shallow.  Eventually, the curvy style of the Queen Anne period came into vogue, and the widespread availability of soft, but strong mahogany lumber allowed these Queen Anne forms to be easily ornamented through dramatic carving, which resulted in the Chippendale style.  After the American Revolution, mahogany became more scarce and more valuable.  Thus, the Chippendale style gave way to the more reserved Hepplewhite and Sheraton furniture, which relied on veneered softwoods and intricate inlay and stringing to provide architectural interest.  I really think it's fascinating to study how furniture styles developed in conjunction with the properties of the woods that were available to the craftsmen.

[Sprucegum]

That februfuga looks like the plywood crates we are getting on some of our imported goods. Unfortunately the veneer is not thick enough to salvage and the ply its glued to is very low quality junk  :(

[Dodgy Loner]

Where are your shipping crates coming from?  Turns out the T. febrefuga is a common timber in Southeast Asia and is actually marketed as Vietnam mahogany.  So I wouldn't be too surprised if you were getting some Toona lumber from southeast Asia.

Wikipedia says that there are five species of Toona worldwide:

Toona calantas - Kalantas or Philippine Mahogany
Toona ciliata (syn. T. australis) - Australian Red Cedar, Toon, Suren or Indian Mahogany
Toona febrifuga - Vietnam Mahogany
Toona sinensis - Chinese Mahogany or Chinese Toon
Toona sureni - Suren or Indonesian Mahogany

So all five species are actually sold as "mahogany".  I've heard of Phillipean mahogany before, but I didn't realize until now that it is a Toona species.  Now I'm actually pretty optimistic about getting my "Chinese mahogany".

[Sprucegum]

 :-[ China 

[Chico]

There is also a species called Banak that is substituted for mahogany When they placed the embargo on logs and before people started sending flitches and cants in they could still import it and for a time it was heavily used as was another wood called pau marfine which is like a croos betwen ash and hickory they tried making baseball bats out of it and did for awhile but I think it prove too dense . 
Chico